jonb2 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, crouch said: This is just as absurd as the Remainer forecasts of doom. Discount entirely. But surely this is what 17.4 million people voted for? Or what proportion on these are going to discount lies like this? One of hundreds uttered from day one. Judging by the number of people still hanging on every word of the Brexit cheer-leaders, there's going to be an awful lot of disappointed leavers. Especially when you tell them they have not achieved Sovereignty Pure until they leave NATO, the WTO, the IMF, the Commonwealth, the IMF, the OECD and the UN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, jonb2 said: But surely this is what 17.4 million people voted for? Or what proportion on these are going to discount lies like this? One of hundreds uttered from day one. Judging by the number of people still hanging on every word of the Brexit cheer-leaders, there's going to be an awful lot of disappointed leavers. Especially when you tell them they have not achieved Sovereignty Pure until they leave NATO, the WTO, the IMF, the Commonwealth, the IMF, the OECD and the UN. Reads as satire but pretty sure we’ve had these exasperating arguments on here... Bye-bye NATO.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 36 minutes ago, jonb2 said: But surely this is what 17.4 million people voted for? Or what proportion on these are going to discount lies like this? One of hundreds uttered from day one. Judging by the number of people still hanging on every word of the Brexit cheer-leaders, there's going to be an awful lot of disappointed leavers. Especially when you tell them they have not achieved Sovereignty Pure until they leave NATO, the WTO, the IMF, the Commonwealth, the IMF, the OECD and the UN. No most Leavers voted on sovereignty and immigration not economics. I don't think they were interested in achieving "sovereignty pure" - whatever that means, just leaving the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dances with sheeple Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 2 hours ago, crouch said: Who has said there won't be problems? Not me. Some businesses will be affected severely, including yours from the sound of it. Many won't. Also you are conflating the Brexit decision in principle with the subsequent incompetence, which is staggering and undeniable. Most of your post details incompetence and you want to elide that with the decision in principle. You can't. Exactly, so anyone losing their jobs need to stop blaming "Brexit" and start voting for politicians that are going to get out there and negotiate good trade deals for the UK, instead of trying to sabotage Brexit on behalf of the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 36 minutes ago, pig said: Reads as satire but pretty sure we’ve had these exasperating arguments on here... Bye-bye NATO.... Actually Pig, I forgot another we need to leave. https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/michael-fabricant-u-turns-on-brexit-and-the-eurovision-song-contest-1-5512196 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Canadian Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, crouch said: Who has said there won't be problems? Not me. Some businesses will be affected severely, including yours from the sound of it. Many won't. Also you are conflating the Brexit decision in principle with the subsequent incompetence, which is staggering and undeniable. Most of your post details incompetence and you want to elide that with the decision in principle. You can't. Really - perhaps someone who was proposing Brexit should have set out how the difficulties I allude to (and the similar ones which impact other industries) could be resolved. They didn't, instead choosing to scream "PROJECT FEAR" every time concerns were raised about what decoupling from the EU would mean for many businesses. Your position seems to be that its up to businesses to resolve the mess that the ill thought out and intellectually lazy Brexit campaign has dumped on their desks and that if people lose their jobs from the resulting chaos that's unavoidable "collateral damage" in your pursuit of some glorious, yet undefined, prize. The sad fact is that my business won't suffer - we'll just shift production into the EU. The suffering will be felt by the people made redundant as a result - through no fault of their own. I can only assume that you are fortunate enough not to face losing your livelihood as a result of Brexit. Edited February 10, 2019 by Exiled Canadian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 13 minutes ago, crouch said: No most Leavers voted on sovereignty and immigration not economics. I don't think they were interested in achieving "sovereignty pure" - whatever that means, just leaving the EU. More immigration from non-EU countries. More unwanted crap like HS2, austerity, NHS privatisation and the snooper's charter. Which obviously most leavers support now that they have their sovereignty. So what is Brexit for? Sovereignty means having control. We have no control. The government does whatever it wants. The EU has done little to feck up our dire domestic politics. Immigration will go up as long as the corporations want it too. More now as it will be a even lower wage economy for the vast majority or plainly jobless for a lifetime - passing this legacy on to their offspring and their kids too. So the low-waged will be competing even more. But without the social safety net. Those that will benefit from wage inflation are lucky. But as businesses fold or leave, they will find their opportunities decrease too. The chances of achieving the Nirvana you said you want are distant. It will take money. Leavers don't want money, don't care about it - so it's not going to happen. We will all have to live in the filling sewer forever. Where's the money going to come from for change ????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Canadian Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, dances with sheeple said: Exactly, so anyone losing their jobs need to stop blaming "Brexit" and start voting for politicians that are going to get out there and negotiate good trade deals for the UK, instead of trying to sabotage Brexit on behalf of the EU. We have (until the end of March anyhow) some pretty good trade agreements with 27 European countries, Japan, Canada and others. Apparently it's sensible to unilaterally pull out of these so that, wait for it......we can negotiate some trade deals. So the people who are losing their jobs are trying to sabotage Brexit - is that really what you meant? Edited February 10, 2019 by Exiled Canadian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 13 minutes ago, dances with sheeple said: Exactly, so anyone losing their jobs need to stop blaming "Brexit" and start voting for politicians that are going to get out there and negotiate good trade deals for the UK, instead of trying to sabotage Brexit on behalf of the EU. Who do you have in mind?? Chris Grayling? Liam Fox? Johnson the diplomat? Priti Patel? Clever David Davis? The haunted pencil? There is nobody. It's not sabotage, it's realism. Pure and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) Edited February 10, 2019 by jonb2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 41 minutes ago, crouch said: No most Leavers voted on sovereignty and immigration not economics. I don't think they were interested in achieving "sovereignty pure" - whatever that means, just leaving the EU. Most voters don't have a clue what sovereignty realy means....both remain and leave....other than it can be used to stop FOM. Most voters don't realise that FOM can be curtailed by using the existing mechanisms at our disposal. Most voters...both leave and remain will understand the financial impact when it hits them...100% certain......and they will be totally narked. And 99.999% of voters don't give a flying fart about your prophecy of eventual EU armagedon...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 27 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said: Really - perhaps someone who was proposing Brexit should have set out how the difficulties I allude to (and the similar ones which impact other industries) could be resolved. They didn't, instead choosing to scream "PROJECT FEAR" every time concerns were raised about what decoupling from the EU would mean for many businesses. Your position seems to be that its up to businesses to resolve the mess that the ill thought out and intellectually lazy Brexit campaign has dumped on their desks and that if people lose their jobs from the resulting chaos that's unavoidable "collateral damage" in your pursuit of some glorious, yet undefined, prize. The sad fact is that my business won't suffer - we'll just shift production into the EU. The suffering will be felt by the people made redundant as a result - through no fault of their own. I can only assume that you are fortunate enough not to face losing your livelihood as a result of Brexit. The "intellectually lazy" campaign had nothing to do with this. It is for the government to set the framework and for businesses to work within this. The fact that the government has been incompetent has created many of these issues. To ask for detailed plans at the time of the referendum which is what you imply - and before the EU has agreed to anything is not merely unreasonable; it is quite absurd. The main source of your problems is not the decision' it is government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 26 minutes ago, jonb2 said: More immigration from non-EU countries. More unwanted crap like HS2, austerity, NHS privatisation and the snooper's charter. Which obviously most leavers support now that they have their sovereignty. So what is Brexit for? Sovereignty means having control. We have no control. The government does whatever it wants. The EU has done little to feck up our dire domestic politics. Immigration will go up as long as the corporations want it too. More now as it will be a even lower wage economy for the vast majority or plainly jobless for a lifetime - passing this legacy on to their offspring and their kids too. So the low-waged will be competing even more. But without the social safety net. Those that will benefit from wage inflation are lucky. But as businesses fold or leave, they will find their opportunities decrease too. The chances of achieving the Nirvana you said you want are distant. It will take money. Leavers don't want money, don't care about it - so it's not going to happen. We will all have to live in the filling sewer forever. Where's the money going to come from for change ????? "More immigration from non-EU countries" Probably; but we will control it which we cannot do with FOM. "More unwanted crap like HS2, austerity, NHS privatisation and the snooper's charter." HS2 should be cancelled; austerity should never have been introduced; NHS privatisation - as someone who is being treated well for prostate cancer I hardly think so; snoopers charter : an unacceptable invasion of privacy. Nirvana? I don't think so; just a reasonable improvement in things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 13 minutes ago, IMHAL said: Most voters don't have a clue what sovereignty realy means....both remain and leave....other than it can be used to stop FOM. Most voters don't realise that FOM can be curtailed by using the existing mechanisms at our disposal. Most voters...both leave and remain will understand the financial impact when it hits them...100% certain......and they will be totally narked. And 99.999% of voters don't give a flying fart about your prophecy of eventual EU armagedon...... You seem to know an awful lot about voters, far more than I do. You'll forgive me if I'm somewhat sceptical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Canadian Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, crouch said: The "intellectually lazy" campaign had nothing to do with this. It is for the government to set the framework and for businesses to work within this. The fact that the government has been incompetent has created many of these issues. To ask for detailed plans at the time of the referendum which is what you imply - and before the EU has agreed to anything is not merely unreasonable; it is quite absurd. The main source of your problems is not the decision' it is government. Sorry - that's utter piffle. The Brexit side in the referendum proposed we leave the EU. It was incumbent upon them to say how it could be done. They didn't. The Remaininers said it would be a nightmare and are being proved right. The issues have been created by the decision to leave the EU, not by the current government.. I'm not sure that any government could have untangled 40 years of close co-operation in many different areas of policy in a way satisfactory to both the UK and 27 EU member states in two years.... this chaos is a direct result of Brexit and was easily foreseeable at the time of the vote. Edited February 10, 2019 by Exiled Canadian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsieurCopperCrutch Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 50 minutes ago, dances with sheeple said: Exactly, so anyone losing their jobs need to stop blaming "Brexit" and start voting for politicians that are going to get out there and negotiate good trade deals for the UK, instead of trying to sabotage Brexit on behalf of the EU. Leavers should lose their jobs first. It’s what they voted for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dances with sheeple Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 36 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said: We have (until the end of March anyhow) some pretty good trade agreements with 27 European countries, Japan, Canada and others. Apparently it's sensible to unilaterally pull out of these so that, wait for it......we can negotiate some trade deals. So the people who are losing their jobs are trying to sabotage Brexit - is that really what you meant? It was pretty clear what I meant, you seem to be adopting the EU tactic of just ignoring the political choices of a population and using economic threats to get them to just forget that they voted to leave the EU (for a lot of reasons not related to trade deals) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsieurCopperCrutch Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 52 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said: Really - perhaps someone who was proposing Brexit should have set out how the difficulties I allude to (and the similar ones which impact other industries) could be resolved. They didn't, instead choosing to scream "PROJECT FEAR" every time concerns were raised about what decoupling from the EU would mean for many businesses. Your position seems to be that its up to businesses to resolve the mess that the ill thought out and intellectually lazy Brexit campaign has dumped on their desks and that if people lose their jobs from the resulting chaos that's unavoidable "collateral damage" in your pursuit of some glorious, yet undefined, prize. The sad fact is that my business won't suffer - we'll just shift production into the EU. The suffering will be felt by the people made redundant as a result - through no fault of their own. I can only assume that you are fortunate enough not to face losing your livelihood as a result of Brexit. I would hope that for any subsequent job losses you will be be removing leave voters first. It’s what they voted for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Canadian Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 minute ago, dances with sheeple said: It was pretty clear what I meant, you seem to be adopting the EU tactic of just ignoring the political choices of a population and using economic threats to get them to just forget that they voted to leave the EU (for a lot of reasons not related to trade deals) It's not a threat - it's the reality of what will happen. People will lose their jobs. Do you think that they voted to lose their jobs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dances with sheeple Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said: Leavers should lose their jobs first. It’s what they voted for. How many people have lost their jobs so far (as we were told would happen by Project Fear)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cock-eyed octopus Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Exiled Canadian said: Sorry - that's utter piffle. The Brexit side in the referendum proposed we leave the EU. It was incumbent upon them to say how it could be done. They didn't. The Remaininers said it would be a nightmare and are being proved right. The issues have been created by the decision to leave the EU, not by the current government.. I'm not sure that any government could have untangled 40 years of close co-operation in many different areas of policy in a way satisfactory to both the UK and 27 EU member states.... this chaos is a direct result of Brexit and was easily foreseeable at the time of the vote. So what you're saying is that it's impossible to leave the EU. Not an argument that'll gain much traction with anyone who has any pride in the UK as an independent nation. It's rather like being told you mustn't vote Labour because of the financial implications. All I can say is that I weighed up the likely financial penalty against the improvement in national self-determination & drew my own conclusions. I think most voters did that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Canadian Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 minute ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said: I would hope that for any subsequent job losses you will be be removing leave voters first. It’s what they voted for. I'm not sure that would be legal. I suppose we could ask for brexit supporting volunteers happy to lay down their livelihoods as a sacrifice for the golden nirvana that awaits outside of EU membership - I wonder if we'd get any takers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dances with sheeple Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Exiled Canadian said: It's not a threat - it's the reality of what will happen. People will lose their jobs. Do you think that they voted to lose their jobs? How do you know what will happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said: Sorry - that's utter piffle. The Brexit side in the referendum proposed we leave the EU. It was incumbent upon them to say how it could be done. They didn't. The Remaininers said it would be a nightmare and are being proved right. The issues have been created by the decision to leave the EU, not by the current government.. I'm not sure that any government could have untangled 40 years of close co-operation in many different areas of policy in a way satisfactory to both the UK and 27 EU member states in two years.... this chaos is a direct result of Brexit and was easily foreseeable at the time of the vote. I'm afraid you're stating the obvious: if we had not decided to leave the EU we would not have had these problems. But the problems are largely those relating to government incompetence notwithstanding the difficulty of the task. Any scheme to leave would have to be discussed with the EU and this was hardly possible before the referendum. You didn't like the result but your criticisms are not only largely unreasonable but actually absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 hour ago, jonb2 said: Actually Pig, I forgot another we need to leave. https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/michael-fabricant-u-turns-on-brexit-and-the-eurovision-song-contest-1-5512196 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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