Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[jonb2]

12 hours ago, Dave Beans said:

Many remainers voted for practical reasons, rather than declaring any love for the EU..

I think that's true.

The EU authority is not the central thing for me. Arguments about its faults are not enough reason to leave it either.

I voted remain because:

1) I knew it would hit us badly economically, so it would simply make things much worse with no upside. Or public services, already weak with the austerity delusion  - will implode.

2) The right wing press supports Brexit - vested interests

3) I like the idea of human cooperation across Europe. My business does (did) this

4) I don't want us to get more into bed with the USA, whose governing values are only for the rich and feck everybody else

5) I wanted tax reforms with teeth, not more spiders web stuff, not more zero-hour contracts

6) Cameron is bad, but those MPs on the side of Brexit are far worse - the dregs. Either stupid, conniving or self-obsessed

 

Here we are now. Hate a bigger feature of daily living. The disaster capitalists licking their lips like a pack of jackals. No other business or attendance to anything than Brexit and who hates who more between the political parties. The media, timid and not doing it's job unless owned by the right wing usual suspects, who sell click-hate headlines.

 

 

[Riedquat]

Just now, inbruges said:

https://bbc.co.uk/news/business-45136390

 

Here you go, this is a classic blatant example of why so many people are attacking institutions, Government and  the whole establishment, this is why you are getting Brexit. People are slowly coming around to the fact they are not living in a democracy like they think they, it's an illusion. Yet again the CBI are just openly suggesting(because it is in their DNA now) that the government  say f*** the electorate this is what we want you to do.

Good for the economy innit?

Thou shalt not question whether good for economy is good for people.

[jonb2]

12 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

I respect your honesty. For me, I am the polar opposite on this.

I thought you supported Scottish independence GD?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Riedquat said:

Good for the economy innit?

Thou shalt not question whether good for economy is good for people.

Someone like the CBI will openly suggest that the UK should allow in 10,000's of Romanian workers because they will live on slave ages and 10 to a bedroom in the picking season, and will not burden the boss with "their rights", unlike those British trouble makers. I have plenty of issues with some British attitudes sometimes, but not on this, why should they put up with it.

Now welfare, that's where my sympathies start getting a little right wing.

[jonb2]

12 hours ago, Dave Beans said:

I know what you mean; ultra remainers & ultra brexiters are two sides of the same coin. No middle ground will be given..

That's because there was never any real middle ground Dave. It was/is a pipe-dream. I think people now realise, nakedly, it's truly black and white.

It's almost as though circumstance natural selection applies.

[jonb2]

12 hours ago, pig said:

I think the ‘problem’ is and always has been a kind of English ‘exceptionslism’, guilty of screwing up both UK and Empire.

I feel like I’ve spent my entire life explaining to people in other countries that that is not the full and final story, the English are way, way more interesting than that.

Unfortunately for me and my optimistic dream of Albion we went and voted for Brexit.

I agree pig.

We had a lot of great things happening in tandem with having an empire - invention, good politics, the arts. People do conflate the two. But there could be a question that a confident nation produces extraordinary things?

[jonb2]

19 minutes ago, inbruges said:

https://bbc.co.uk/news/business-45136390

 

Here you go, this is a classic blatant example of why so many people are attacking institutions, Government and  the whole establishment, this is why you are getting Brexit. People are slowly coming around to the fact they are not living in a democracy like they think they, it's an illusion. Yet again the CBI are just openly suggesting(because it is in their DNA now) that the government  say f*** the electorate this is what we want you to do.

I did not realise the CBI were part of the EU?

[GrizzlyDave]

10 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

I thought you supported Scottish independence GD?

I do.

Well let me put it another way. I strongly believe in the right of self determination. I also appreciate a solid case for Scotland to be independent.

Given the differences in law, culture, historical events; there is a strong case for it. Would I want Scotland to join the EU; no. Would I get a Scottish passport even if it was an EU passport; yes.

Would I vote for it; if I could, yes I think I would vote for Scottish independence.

But here’s the thing, I still support the Union, but it has to be a happy marriage; and on many occasions it is not. Especially the London centric nature of UK government.

[jonb2]

7 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

I do.

Well let me put it another way. I strongly believe in the right of self determination. I also appreciate a solid case for Scotland to be independent.

Given the differences in law, culture, historical events; there is a strong case for it. Would I want Scotland to join the EU; no. Would I get a Scottish passport even if it was an EU passport; yes.

Would I vote for it; if I could, yes I think I would vote for Scottish independence.

But here’s the thing, I still support the Union, but it has to be a happy marriage; and on many occasions it is not. Especially the London centric nature of UK government.

I agree with this. Devolution should be regional to a much larger degree. There is greater support than not for Northern Ireland to go back into the hands of the south. I agree with this too. But it goes back to me hammering the point for a ground zero, brand new system.

I think, when Brexit happens, the sooner England realises it's a tiny country in a big world - the better. The whole of the UK needs massive change and reform.

But, I am not confident this will happen without major aggro - a hard Brexit will certainly underwrite it. Only until people are missing the basics will they act. It worries me a great deal.

[debtlessmanc]

12 hours ago, pig said:

I think the ‘problem’ is and always has been a kind of English ‘exceptionslism’, guilty of screwing up both UK and Empire.

I feel like I’ve spent my entire life explaining to people in other countries that that is not the full and final story, the English are way, way more interesting than that.

Unfortunately for me and my optimistic dream of Albion we went and voted for Brexit.

You aren't alone, Adolf Hitler wrote of his frustration by the english contempt for all things continental and their overbearing self confidence. In fact these things are attested to in ecclesisatical documents dating back to the 12th century. i wouldn't put it down to anything other than an island mentality to be  honest.

been away on narrowboat for 3 weeks, never met so many other europeans on the canals, swedes, germans, dutch, norwegians you name it. I guess it is cheap with the pound as it is. The large german family we spoke said they were enjoying meeting and talking to real english people, whatever that meant.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

I did not realise the CBI were part of the EU?

Neither did I

Yet again, what are you talking about??

[kzb]

12 hours ago, thecrashingisles said:

If you can't maintain majority support throughout the process, tough titties.  Democracy doesn't stop because we had a vote in 2016.

Other elections remain valid for a fixed period, e.g 5 years for UK parliament or 4 years for US president.

Maybe all EU members should have a referendum periodically, say every 10 years.

What we can't have is continued referenda until they get the result they want.  Just imagine if this applied to general elections.

[winkie]

42 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

I think that's true.

The EU authority is not the central thing for me. Arguments about its faults are not enough reason to leave it either.

I voted remain because:

1) I knew it would hit us badly economically, so it would simply make things much worse with no upside. Or public services, already weak with the austerity delusion  - will implode.

2) The right wing press supports Brexit - vested interests

3) I like the idea of human cooperation across Europe. My business does (did) this

4) I don't want us to get more into bed with the USA, whose governing values are only for the rich and feck everybody else

5) I wanted tax reforms with teeth, not more spiders web stuff, not more zero-hour contracts

6) Cameron is bad, but those MPs on the side of Brexit are far worse - the dregs. Either stupid, conniving or self-obsessed

 

Here we are now. Hate a bigger feature of daily living. The disaster capitalists licking their lips like a pack of jackals. No other business or attendance to anything than Brexit and who hates who more between the political parties. The media, timid and not doing it's job unless owned by the right wing usual suspects, who sell click-hate headlines.

 

 

I would vote for you.?

[OnionTerror]

56 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

That's because there was never any real middle ground Dave. It was/is a pipe-dream. I think people now realise, nakedly, it's truly black and white.

It's almost as though circumstance natural selection applies.

Pre Brexit, that’s true.  Post Brexit, especially under a hard Brexit, pragmatism will kick in.  Of course there will still be fringes on either side.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Dave Beans

[jonb2]

12 minutes ago, inbruges said:

Neither did I

Yet again, what are you talking about??

Well IB, the point I keep on hammering home is - the badness is here, in the UK. All things are shit because of those that 'run things' here. The CBI's rather crass announcement is a local problem - nothing to do with the EU.

It's been my constant complaint about Brexit being a damaging distraction which will achieve absolutely nothing to mend things. If you want to get a better and fairer society - you have to completely change things in GB. The EU has been a bystander to the great disaster of misrule by TPTB in Westminster for 50 years.

Blame the right people, then unseat them forever. Replacing them with people that want to do the job. Those that have a vision for Great Britain's recovery which includes everybody and are not bent by the foul-smelling winds of corruption or hyper-selfishness.

[jonb2]

26 minutes ago, winkie said:

I would vote for you.?

Thanks Winkie ? I am honoured.

I'll start my manifesto tomorrow and draw from all the HPC crew here for the new Birmingham based parliament.

[Riedquat]

1 hour ago, kzb said:

What we can't have is continued referenda until they get the result they want.  Just imagine if this applied to general elections.

That's not the idea. It's not referendums until they get the result they want, it's referendums until they get the result that's right, they of course support the right outcome, and anyone who doesn't is an idiot who shouldn't be voting anyway. That must also not be questioned.

[dances with sheeple]

11 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

That's not the idea. It's not referendums until they get the result they want, it's referendums until they get the result that's right, they of course support the right outcome, and anyone who doesn't is an idiot who shouldn't be voting anyway. That must also not be questioned.

It gets problematic if MORE people vote to leave next time though. There isn`t going to be another referendum. In more pressing news...Is Turkey about to blow up a few European banks? Classic rant going on just now from the leader, saying the financial instability is "artificial" (he might have a point there actually) and more or less calling the world`s central banks and markets the Great Satan.

[kzb]

52 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

That's not the idea. It's not referendums until they get the result they want, it's referendums until they get the result that's right, they of course support the right outcome, and anyone who doesn't is an idiot who shouldn't be voting anyway. That must also not be questioned.

It's the first time I have heard such an attack on the one-member one-vote principle.  

Serious consideration on academic qualifications and if you are too old to vote.

Next time you will need a degree (unless under 21 -all over-15's allowed to vote irrespective of intelligence) and be under the age of 40 to vote.

[GrizzlyDave]

32 minutes ago, kzb said:

It's the first time I have heard such an attack on the one-member one-vote principle.  

Serious consideration on academic qualifications and if you are too old to vote.

Next time you will need a degree (unless under 21 -all over-15's allowed to vote irrespective of intelligence) and be under the age of 40 to vote.

What if you served two tours in Afghanistan instead of getting a degree in aromatherapy - should your vote count for less?

As for age limits; it’s crushing enough that I can no longer win the Fields Medal, what else do you want to take from me?

[kzb]

20 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

What if you served two tours in Afghanistan instead of getting a degree in aromatherapy - should your vote count for less?

As for age limits; it’s crushing enough that I can no longer win the Fields Medal, what else do you want to take from me?

 

As a whitemale, you shouldn't have a vote, because you are using your vote to subjugate others and entrench your privileged position. 

[kzb]

2 hours ago, dances with sheeple said:

It gets problematic if MORE people vote to leave next time though. There isn`t going to be another referendum. In more pressing news...Is Turkey about to blow up a few European banks? Classic rant going on just now from the leader, saying the financial instability is "artificial" (he might have a point there actually) and more or less calling the world`s central banks and markets the Great Satan.

I don't know how they reverse the first referendum without a second one. 

The only way is another GE, where parties campaign on unambiguous Remain or Leave policies based on "the deal".

As for Turkey, tell us more I've not had chance to look into it.

[GrizzlyDave]

26 minutes ago, kzb said:

As a whitemale, you shouldn't have a vote, because you are using your vote to subjugate others and entrench your privileged position. 

I’m a ginger - that’s a minority group?

[pig]

22 minutes ago, kzb said:

As a whitemale, you shouldn't have a vote, because you are using your vote to subjugate others and entrench your privileged position. 

Join with your fellow oligarchs, stoke fear, contempt and violence, build walls wherever you can real and imaginary. Point in the wrong direction and  get poor white numpties to identify with and vote for you. Then subjugate and feed off them with your mates.

Lovely jubbly, privilege entrenched.

[pig]

4 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

I’m a ginger - that’s a minority group?

Aren’t all Lib Dem’s ginger ? They’re a minority