ccc Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: Indeed I am! I voted remain, but now want out. @ccc of course there will are many leavers who voted not to have a hard Brexit. The likes of JRM are being a bit presumptuous when he says that all 17.4m voted for one. However, let’s just say they all did, then what will leavers think that when they realise that a HB will eventually drag us back into the EU machine, but with actually a “worse” say than now? Its all about what happens in the next nine months.. whilst not giving a thought about the next ten years. I really don't get this though. You listened to leave and remain camps. You watched the adverts. You read the leaflet. What you were voting for is what is now being described as a 'hard' Brexit. The people voted for a hard Brexit. Now were there some - from both sides that didn't bother to read any of that basic stuff and just ticked a box because they felt like it ? Of course !! But that will happen in any type of vote. It doesn't change what was voted for. And that was a 'hard' Brexit. It was explained by both sides - and both sides agreed. Im utterly staggered as to why some people don't think this is the case ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Locke said: I am kind of too, because laws and rules are just human concepts. What really matters is people's attitudes and capabilities. Being out of the EU just makes it a bit easier to avoid the negative consequences of their rules. How can Britain rejoin an entity which won't exist in 10 years? If I had to put cash on it this is my feeling too. It may still exist in name but will be nothing like it is today. The tide has turned too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 14 minutes ago, inbruges said: Well I am on the leave or stay we will be just fine side with probably a preference that I would have liked to have seen a functional united States of Europe. The apocalyptic rantings of some remainers though just beggers belief. well, in fairness, the dross, bilge and outright sophistry of the brexiteers beggars belief to me. When this debate started two years ago (go and have a look), this was going to be the simplest thing in the world. Everything would work better, and we'd be far better off. That has now morphed to so what if we're going to be fiscally raped and be worse off for 10 years, at least we'll be out. 6 minutes ago, Locke said: I am kind of too, because laws and rules are just human concepts. What really matters is people's attitudes and capabilities. Being out of the EU just makes it a bit easier to avoid the negative consequences of their rules. How can Britain rejoin an entity which won't exist in 10 years? This has been said since its inception . It's stronger now than before, with even ardent anti EU folk warming to the benefits. Italy hasn't left, but Italy will demand massive concessions if we do leave with anything remotely similar to a good deal. That reason, alone, is why we're getting shafted. Italy, France, Austria, Poland, Germany, Hungary, Holland, et al have all made noises, none have left, none have touted a referendum. The EU will be more united in 10 years, it might look slightly different, but the EU will be more united than today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Best policy for the EU is to say nothing on the proposed deal and drag it as close to March as possible, thus ensuring we continue to rip each other apart and then beg to stay in/extend Art 50. And they can agree in principle to negotiate on it (before saying no way?), during the fabled transition period - given that their priority is the Withdrawal Agreement and trade/future relationship comes later. But I don't think May can hold out that long - and the Brit public have HAD ENOUGH. So...here's a call... 1 - May's deal gets thrown out by the HoC this week. May steps aside citing ill health/strain of the job, caretaker emergency Brexit PM appointed - GE promised for the spring. 2 - Parliamentary recess suspended by emergency Act. Davis White Paper (repackaged) presented...Tories ditch the DUP, agree to border in the Irish Sea (as light a touch as possible to limit backlash) and propose Canada plus FTA, with some of Dave Beans sticking plaster emergency treaties thrown in on aviation/immigration/security etc. No Single Market, no Customs Union, no land border in NI. 3 - MPs vote the deal down in August, seven months to organize a 2nd ref - either seek to revoke Art 50 and stay in, or leave under the Canada plus deal. No more fuss. We stay in or pull out of the EU and its institutions, seeking the best trade deal possible on the outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Locke said: How can Britain rejoin an entity which won't exist in 10 years? An over looked good point, nationalism is growing in Germany and Italy and various other EU countries, and as usual it is sadly but understandably turning to the right for answers. I think it won't be long now before Greece, then later the UK will become the least of their problems, will be interesting to hear the Remainers take on it then. I have two customers in Hitchin who are your typical laid back Swedish, I don't read much about the Swedish and their views on the EU, you would expect them to be still living the the peaceful non confrontational way that they do, but none of it, things are stirring over there as well according to these guys, many are fuming over mass muslim immigration forced on them by Merkel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: well, in fairness, the dross, bilge and outright sophistry of the brexiteers beggars belief to me. When this debate started two years ago (go and have a look), this was going to be the simplest thing in the world. Everything would work better, and we'd be far better off. That has now morphed to so what if we're going to be fiscally raped and be worse off for 10 years, at least we'll be out. Lies both side, but remain won hands down in that department. The only difficulties that have been created have been by the remainers who have caused issues at every turn so that today they can say "ohh look at the difficulties". I will grant to you the remainers have won a sneaky lets drag this out and make things as difficult as possible battle and and openly sided with the EU as well in order to give them even more clout. So now the only answer is a 2nd referendum, which I suspect the Leavers will win by a higher majority this time, buy hey, they might not before you start one of those "Oh no they won't" panto scenes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: That reason, alone, is why we're getting shafted. "If you try to leave your husband, he might beat you more to teach you a lesson, so you should stick with him to influence the marriage from the inside." 8 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: The EU will be more united in 10 years, Just lol. Even if it is, it won't be a place you'd want to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Another resignation/rebel... http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2018-07-16/cornwall-mp-scott-mann-resigns-from-government-role-over-brexit/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 16 minutes ago, thehowler said: Best policy for the EU is to say nothing on the proposed deal and drag it as close to March as possible, thus ensuring we continue to rip each other apart and then beg to stay in/extend Art 50. And they can agree in principle to negotiate on it (before saying no way?), during the fabled transition period - given that their priority is the Withdrawal Agreement and trade/future relationship comes later. But I don't think May can hold out that long - and the Brit public have HAD ENOUGH. So...here's a call... 1 - May's deal gets thrown out by the HoC this week. May steps aside citing ill health/strain of the job, caretaker emergency Brexit PM appointed - GE promised for the spring. 2 - Parliamentary recess suspended by emergency Act. Davis White Paper (repackaged) presented...Tories ditch the DUP, agree to border in the Irish Sea (as light a touch as possible to limit backlash) and propose Canada plus FTA, with some of Dave Beans sticking plaster emergency treaties thrown in on aviation/immigration/security etc. No Single Market, no Customs Union, no land border in NI. 3 - MPs vote the deal down in August, seven months to organize a 2nd ref - either seek to revoke Art 50 and stay in, or leave under the Canada plus deal. No more fuss. We stay in or pull out of the EU and its institutions, seeking the best trade deal possible on the outside. I think the first point is a natch, and the second the best possible option left for us. 7 minutes ago, inbruges said: 1. Lies both side, but remain won hands down in that department. The only difficulties that have been created have been by the remainers who have caused issues at every turn so that today they can say "ohh look at the difficulties". I will grant to you the remainers have won a sneaky lets drag this out and make things as difficult as possible battle and and openly sided with the EU as well in order to give them even more clout. 2. So now the only answer is a 2nd referendum, which I suspect the Leavers will win by a higher majority this time, buy hey, they might not before you start one of those "Oh no they won't" panto scenes. 1. Rubbish, absolute dross again. 2. Well we'll agree to differ. I think Remain would win, and at a canter. 6 minutes ago, Locke said: 1. "If you try to leave your husband, he might beat you more to teach you a lesson, so you should stick with him to influence the marriage from the inside." 2. Even if it is, it won't be a place you'd want to be. 1. Just lol. Just absolute lol. We voted to leave the EU, the EU didn't vote to leave the UK, so we've got to dance to their tune. The onus is on us to negotiate the best deal for us, not for them to give it to us, as if we leave, they have to best protect the interests of the 27, not the 1. 2. It is, I have a house there in which I will retire. It's all just conjecture on your part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 31 minutes ago, ccc said: I really don't get this though. You listened to leave and remain camps. You watched the adverts. You read the leaflet. What you were voting for is what is now being described as a 'hard' Brexit. The people voted for a hard Brexit. Now were there some - from both sides that didn't bother to read any of that basic stuff and just ticked a box because they felt like it ? Of course !! But that will happen in any type of vote. It doesn't change what was voted for. And that was a 'hard' Brexit. It was explained by both sides - and both sides agreed. Im utterly staggered as to why some people don't think this is the case ? Arron Banks... amongst others. https://mobile.twitter.com/arron_banks/status/682125949245206528?lang=en Even my Leave Means Leave MP wanted to stay in the single market. I don’t buy the “EU won’t exist in ten years line”. A couple of countries will leave. We will set a benchmark on how not to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 1 hour ago, inbruges said: Can I remind everyone on this thread that this website is predominantly a protest site towards high house prices(I think) and the anger we feel towards an immoral and greedy housing market that is ruining the lives of millions of people as it allows greed in the form of parasitic BTL landlords to feed of us and the refusal over the many years now for the government to address our concerns and just openly ignore us. Well the same goes for Brexit, and to ignore the will of the people is a given in UK democracy today by government but I find it hypocritical from some of you to think it is OK to ignore the will of the people when it suits you. I have heard many on here argue that they voted for Brexit despite the fact that they would lose out, good little martyrs that they are (CCC is a good example). Yet many on here want a HPC. A Hard Brexit will ensure a HPC. This is the definition of hypocrisy - saying you have nothing to gain and being a HPC'er....... it''s laughable . It is clear that the will of the people has not been captured by the referendum as can be seen by the unresolved arguments about what Brexit should be. Therefore the original referendum, like it or not, cannot represent the will of all the 17.9m which was in any case, a slim majority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funn3r Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, inbruges said: So now the only answer is a 2nd referendum, which I suspect the Leavers will win by a higher majority this time, buy hey, they might not before you start one of those "Oh no they won't" panto scenes. I don't think there is any point of another referendum unless this time it actually has some sort of legal standing instead of just somewhere for people to vent their dissatisfaction with government. Kudos to @thehowler for a constructive set of predictions. I too think a GE is inevitable but well before spring 2019. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, thehowler said: Another resignation/rebel... http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2018-07-16/cornwall-mp-scott-mann-resigns-from-government-role-over-brexit/ I really don't know why they are resigning. TM is delivering what people voted for..... it's the will o' the peeple. Are they against democracy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 1 minute ago, IMHAL said: I really don't know why they are resigning. TM is delivering what people voted for..... it's the will o' the peeple. Are they against democracy? I predicted mass bed wetting when the white paper came out, and that's what it all is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: I think the first point is a natch, and the second the best possible option left for us. 1. Rubbish, absolute dross again. 2. Well we'll agree to differ. I think Remain would win, and at a canter. 1. Just lol. Just absolute lol. We voted to leave the EU, the EU didn't vote to leave the UK, so we've got to dance to their tune. The onus is on us to negotiate the best deal for us, not for them to give it to us, as if we leave, they have to best protect the interests of the 27, not the 1. 2. It is, I have a house there in which I will retire. It's all just conjecture on your part. These are really subjective arguments and I have no proof at all on the outcome one way or the other, just like you, apart from being indifferent to the result should we have Ref2 I try not to get over emotive which seems to be the Remainers constant weapon towards stupid people that will not side with them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 30 minutes ago, thehowler said: Best policy for the EU is to say nothing on the proposed deal and drag it as close to March as possible, thus ensuring we continue to rip each other apart and then beg to stay in/extend Art 50. And they can agree in principle to negotiate on it (before saying no way?), during the fabled transition period - given that their priority is the Withdrawal Agreement and trade/future relationship comes later. But I don't think May can hold out that long - and the Brit public have HAD ENOUGH. So...here's a call... 1 - May's deal gets thrown out by the HoC this week. May steps aside citing ill health/strain of the job, caretaker emergency Brexit PM appointed - GE promised for the spring. 2 - Parliamentary recess suspended by emergency Act. Davis White Paper (repackaged) presented...Tories ditch the DUP, agree to border in the Irish Sea (as light a touch as possible to limit backlash) and propose Canada plus FTA, with some of Dave Beans sticking plaster emergency treaties thrown in on aviation/immigration/security etc. No Single Market, no Customs Union, no land border in NI. 3 - MPs vote the deal down in August, seven months to organize a 2nd ref - either seek to revoke Art 50 and stay in, or leave under the Canada plus deal. No more fuss. We stay in or pull out of the EU and its institutions, seeking the best trade deal possible on the outside. I think that is entirely possible.... the sequence does not matter so much as does the end result.... the crystal is clearing.......a second referendum is getting more likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 37 minutes ago, ccc said: I really don't get this though. You listened to leave and remain camps. You watched the adverts. You read the leaflet. What you were voting for is what is now being described as a 'hard' Brexit. The people voted for a hard Brexit. Now were there some - from both sides that didn't bother to read any of that basic stuff and just ticked a box because they felt like it ? Of course !! But that will happen in any type of vote. It doesn't change what was voted for. And that was a 'hard' Brexit. It was explained by both sides - and both sides agreed. Im utterly staggered as to why some people don't think this is the case ? I'm afraid that that doesn't stack up. We were voting to leave the EU, nothing more. People on both sides gave their opinions of what it would be afterwards but the question on the sheet rightly didn't specify any of those. Leave encompasses a large range of opinions about what a relationship with the EU when you're not a member should be. Given the general direction of Leave it's then the government's job to gauge where that should be and get on with it. It's not their job to try to twist it to their own ends as much as possible and play politics when they should be governing, although what's new there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, IMHAL said: I really don't know why they are resigning. Making it clear they're about to vote against the whip. Brinksmanship...or a revolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, IMHAL said: TM is delivering what people voted for..... That's not the rumblings from the Tory heartlands... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Just now, inbruges said: These are really subjective arguments and I have no proof at all on the outcome one way or the other, just like you, apart from being indifferent to the result should we have Ref2 I try not to get over emotive which seems to be the Remainers constant weapon towards stupid people that will not side with them Just rubbish once more. You're saying all of these issues are made by remainers. That they've only come out, due to the remainers making the issues. That's simply silly, sorry, but it is. As for the referendum, yes, purely subjective from us both, but mines formed by speaking about it a lot, with a lot of people, and looking at the zeitgeist mainly on twitter. And if stupid people are being stupid, it's ok to call them out on it. Same goes for bright folk too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, Funn3r said: I don't think there is any point of another referendum unless this time it actually has some sort of legal standing instead of just somewhere for people to vent their dissatisfaction with government. Kudos to @thehowler for a constructive set of predictions. I too think a GE is inevitable but well before spring 2019. Well Mays silly white paper cannot be allowed to stand, Remainers have caused so many divisions or as some might see it "raised reasonable concerns" that Ref2 is now the only answer, and if they win well done to them, if they loose this time shit the f*** up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Just now, thehowler said: That's not the rumblings from the Tory heartlands... People ticked the Brexit box.... May is delivering Brexit.... she should just get on with it ..........or admit that no one can agree on which Brexit does in fact represent the will of the people. In which case the next step is as you have predicted.... you go back to the people and ask them to be more specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: We voted to leave the EU, the EU didn't vote to leave the UK, so we've got to dance to their tune. Is that a moral principle, or do you simply fail to comprehend negotiation? 10 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: The onus is on us to negotiate the best deal for us, not for them to give it to us, as if we leave, they have to best protect the interests of the 27, not the 1. I think you just don't grok the concept of independence. I think that both sides have much to gain from a friendly relationship between UK and EU. You, however, are prototypical of the kleptocrat EU official attitude, where any disobedience to the Collective must be punished with extreme prejudice. If the EU strike Britain down, the consequences will beyond what they can imagine. They will finally have demonstrated the naked force which is the poisonous glue holding the whole thing together. I suppose that scene in A New Hope went completely over your head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simvastatin Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 18 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: I think the first point is a natch, and the second the best possible option left for us. 1. Rubbish, absolute dross again. 2. Well we'll agree to differ. I think Remain would win, and at a canter. 1. Just lol. Just absolute lol. We voted to leave the EU, the EU didn't vote to leave the UK, so we've got to dance to their tune. The onus is on us to negotiate the best deal for us, not for them to give it to us, as if we leave, they have to best protect the interests of the 27, not the 1. 2. It is, I have a house there in which I will retire. It's all just conjecture on your part. Not really I voted remain but not sure anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: I predicted mass bed wetting when the white paper came out, and that's what it all is. When I voted for Brexit, I honestly did not believe that the rest of the country had the spine to stand up to the Dictators in Brussels. I knew that even if the vote succeeded, Brexit was going to be an utter shitshow. The point of the Referendum was not leaving the EU; it was to crystalise the People's long-unexpressed opinion. Unsurprisingly, the Elites such as yourself have failed to grasp this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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