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DTMark

Immigration

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I thought this deserved a thread of its own, being rather pertinent to the EU debate.

"They do the jobs the Brits don't want to do"

This always intrigues me.

Don't we have something like 20% of our young people unemployed? Entire families where nobody has ever worked? Sink estates where that is true for more then one generation, where youngsters grow up seeing their parents as their role models and that role model doesn't involve getting a job?

If I rewind back to the days before mass EU migration, the toilets were still being cleaned, the warehouses were still packing stuff, fruit was still being picked, pizzas were still being delivered, and somebody was driving the buses. Enough examples. Only that last one requires a degree of technical skill.

The paradox of how we can preside over a Welfare State which just seems to grow and grow, while still importing cheap labour as some of the indigenous population is paid to sit on its proverbial backside never ceases to amaze me.

Clearly those leaving university might imagine that the economy could support the skilled, well-paid roles they may have had in mind. Senior nurses and doctors spring to mind. Yet, we import those, too. Indeed we're told that the NHS will collapse if we do not.

So we appear to have two sets of immigration: first, those who do the low-paid jobs we "don't want to do" and who will travel thousands of miles to get them while locals within 10 miles of employment sit on their backsides and moan about the immigrants nicking their opportunities, jobs that anyone could do, vote for more Welfare and bemoan the nasty Tory party taking away "their money".

But then, the rise in the size of the labour pool must have a clear link to zero-hours and casual work and there being hundreds of applicants for even simple jobs. New Labour were keen to preside over this and shaft their traditional core voter. The same voter is now being told that they will be better off remaining in the EU. Orwell would have been proud of this double-talk.

It's probably true that the indigenous population might have some expectation of being able to do normal things, like raise a family, live in a house that's big enough, and so on. Immigrants don't have the same expectations. They may well live six to a one bed flat and be prepared to do so. Many may have come from having literally nothing and while the UK may not have proven to be so paved with gold as it might appear externally, their wages can go a long way if they are able to send any of that home.

And yet, skilled professionals which we should frankly be able to train and reward internally from our own populace: did we just wake up one day and realise that we've not planned ahead at all for our needs? We used to have various government-backed training schemes for things like engineers (IIRC), now, it's just easier to import skilled labour, too. The Employers can run the schemes. The connection between people leaving school and finding their way into available roles is broken. Education and social conditions are turning out natives who can't read and write properly. Apparently. Not sure how true that is. We'll let the employers pick from the labour pool of the entire EU. Bugger the idea of planning into the future.

I can see no end to this. We take the easier option every time. Pay people to sit on their backsides, while importing the labour from abroad. Yet, not everyone in receipt of Welfare is lazy like this. Actually, probably, most want to work. Historically our education system has hardly been great but it's still pumping out plenty of people who could make the most of opportunities.

How did we get into this position?

Do we really *need* mass-immigration?

Of course the line I'm walking here isn't "the immigrants are to blame", "immigrants are bad", but, that we have rather deliberately, or probably inadvertently, engineered this situation. I'm not blaming any particular political party.

A few things that spring to mind: debt based economy driving up the gap between incomes and basic needs like housing, politicians using the Welfare State to buy votes, the ensuing riots which politicians are afraid of should benefits be cut, more money tokens circulating, even if in a semi-black economy, keeps the population quiet, the trickle-up effect of cheap labour benefitting the GDP and to hell with the social consequences.

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Can't argue with any of that. The one point I'll pick up on is "Do we really *need* mass-immigration?" (even though I know you're not saying "yes"). But even if the answer to that was "Yes" for something it's still not a route we should go down because it's pretty much the equivalent of "Do I *need* to join a pyramid scheme?"

We get it because it seems to provide a quick and easy short-term solution that kicks the can down the street for a while, future consequences be damned. The real problem is that any long-term thinking that doesn't provide quick and cheap answers is doomed to never get off the ground. We're still far too immature a society to think long-term and give a damn.

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....

How did we get into this position?

...

Gordon Brown created a big 'vote-for-me' tax credit system which dragged ow to middle earners out of paid employment and put them in to part-time jobs, topping up the money with tax-credits.

EE moved in. Then discovered the tax credit system, so did the same.

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Immigration up, unemployment down? Do we think the UK gov. is cooking the figures re. unemployment, or are they genuine and job market self-levels?

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Biggest SJW that I know is in his late 20's and has never really had a job.

He recently started a useless degree that he'll be getting paid to do because his parents don't declare their income. A few years back he was getting paid a small amount to attend college.

He is very much a socialist, but would not dream of doing a job such as cleaning the toilets or manual labor or whatever. Despite having no marketable skills whatsoever, he considers himself 'better' than that - he doesn't say that, but his actions show it.

Most SJW's are the same - they know someone has to do the glamorous jobs, it just aint gonna be them. And this is where the immigrants that they love so much come in.

"I'm a progressive non racist person. Now clean my toilets."

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I can see no end to this. We take the easier option every time. Pay people to sit on their backsides, while importing the labour from abroad.

Universal welfare for all bums is the killer.

And welfare with open borders (or the so-called family re-unions) makes no sense.

Welfare should be means tested. You only take out if you or at least your parents paid in. And then if you claim all your life but don't pay in, your kids are not going to get it. Simple.

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Immigration up, unemployment down? Do we think the UK gov. is cooking the figures re. unemployment, or are they genuine and job market self-levels?

There's a hugh fudge.

We have record numbers of people in employment yet are running a 5% budget defit and 7% current account deficit.

To me that points to importing large numbers of low paid workers, who are claiming tax credits and then sending the money back home.

Whatever work UK nationslas and EUers are doing, a lot of neither productive (Hello, hand car washing) or self-supporting.

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Universal welfare for all bums is the killer.

And welfare with open borders (or the so-called family re-unions) makes no sense.

Welfare should be means tested. You only take out if you or at least your parents paid in. And then if you claim all your life but don't pay in, your kids are not going to get it. Simple.

No. Welfare should be contribution based and time limited.

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No. Welfare should be contribution based and time limited.

Yes. I meant to say that it shouldn't be means tested.

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I thought along these lines when they had one of the Norfolk farmer / packer businesses on TV saying remain was essential.

He said he had tried to recruit from the local population but there just weren't enough people

So he instantly goes to Poland - FFS - to import a load of people for a few months that he can put up in his caravans.

Perhaps he could have gone to Gateshead / Devon / anywhere IN the UK that has unemployed people needing a job.

Just wrong.

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I thought along these lines when they had one of the Norfolk farmer / packer businesses on TV saying remain was essential.

He said he had tried to recruit from the local population but there just weren't enough people

So he instantly goes to Poland - FFS - to import a load of people for a few months that he can put up in his caravans.

Perhaps he could have gone to Gateshead / Devon / anywhere IN the UK that has unemployed people needing a job.

Just wrong.

Why would any low skilled Brits want to wake up at 6am to work hard physically in rain and cold, if they can get the cash directly from the state whilst playing playstation all day? (and especially if you're a woman with a few accidental kids).

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Biggest SJW that I know is in his late 20's and has never really had a job.

He recently started a useless degree that he'll be getting paid to do because his parents don't declare their income. A few years back he was getting paid a small amount to attend college.

He is very much a socialist, but would not dream of doing a job such as cleaning the toilets or manual labor or whatever. Despite having no marketable skills whatsoever, he considers himself 'better' than that - he doesn't say that, but his actions show it.

Most SJW's are the same - they know someone has to do the glamorous jobs, it just aint gonna be them. And this is where the immigrants that they love so much come in.

"I'm a progressive non racist person. Now clean my toilets."

You sound surprised hes never had a job and has a useless degree. Part + parcel for the average SJW.

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Why would any low skilled Brits want to wake up at 6am to work hard physically in rain and cold, if they can get the cash directly from the state whilst playing playstation all day? (and especially if you're a woman with a few accidental kids).

Nail on Head.

I think if the Lord's hadn't blocked the benefit changes last year the referendum arguments would have looked entirely different.

Odd that one unelected body may actually have crippled another unelected body. Karma.

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To be honest, using the case of Farming as an example of why the immigration is good is fckign nuts.

Farming is grossly subsided.

Then takes the p1ss even more by gettign subbed (tax credit) labour.

We should not be importing labour for our agriculture sector.

Poland and down to the Balkans has loads of cheap farm ,land and labour.

Why FFS has the production moved there?

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Immigration up, unemployment down? Do we think the UK gov. is cooking the figures re. unemployment, or are they genuine and job market self-levels?

Guess depends what you are comparing it to. Everyone goes on about the 'we dont want to have 3,000,000 unemployed like in the early 80s'

but consider many left school at 16 in the early 80s and would instantly be added onto unemployment rolls. Now virtually everyone stays in education till 18 (reduces worker rolls by a million), and many more go onto full time university studies (reduces by another couple million) The long term economic value of many of these graduates is debatable at best.

Then there is the tripling of people on disability (was stable at about 500,000 in 60s/70s/early 80s

DLA%20claimants.jpg

Then there are another million or so who in the past decade have entered self employment. Not making enough money to get by without tax credits and thus not 'employed' in productive endeavors. Self employment used to give similar wages to employees, now less than half...(once you strip out serious businesses yielding over £100k pa)

Screen-shot-2013-12-02-at-15.22.08.png

Personally I dont think we ever recovered from de-industrialization, whatever the ONS says.

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On carrots....

I thought carrots were picked by machine for the past few decades, the only thing is that eastern Europeans can do it cheaper.

It`s the same with car washes.....they are cheap labour for the middle classes.

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Biggest SJW that I know is in his late 20's and has never really had a job.

He recently started a useless degree that he'll be getting paid to do because his parents don't declare their income. A few years back he was getting paid a small amount to attend college.

He is very much a socialist, but would not dream of doing a job such as cleaning the toilets or manual labor or whatever. Despite having no marketable skills whatsoever, he considers himself 'better' than that - he doesn't say that, but his actions show it.

Most SJW's are the same - they know someone has to do the glamorous jobs, it just aint gonna be them. And this is where the immigrants that they love so much come in.

"I'm a progressive non racist person. Now clean my toilets."

That attitude is instilled at higher education places everywhere...it is precisely what they are selling...get ahead, get a degree.

Then they say everyone is equal and if you do better its because privilege....it fracks the minds of the young.

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That attitude is instilled at higher education places everywhere...it is precisely what they are selling...get ahead, get a degree.

Then they say everyone is equal and if you do better its because privilege....it fracks the minds of the young.

Dont people question/critically analyse things? Even when I got my first taste of 'SJWism' with a-level sociology at 16/17, even then I could see most of it was a crock of shit, with 'evidence' presented purely to fill a hypothesis and other evidence just disregarded.

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Biggest SJW that I know is in his late 20's and has never really had a job.

He recently started a useless degree that he'll be getting paid to do because his parents don't declare their income. A few years back he was getting paid a small amount to attend college.

He is very much a socialist, but would not dream of doing a job such as cleaning the toilets or manual labor or whatever. Despite having no marketable skills whatsoever, he considers himself 'better' than that - he doesn't say that, but his actions show it.

Most SJW's are the same - they know someone has to do the glamorous jobs, it just aint gonna be them. And this is where the immigrants that they love so much come in.

"I'm a progressive non racist person. Now clean my toilets."

I do wonder how things work in lefty world. Bennett or one of the other green party crazies last election was going on about no one should have to do these awful jobs like being a bin man or working in McDonalds. Which simply begs the question, who is going to do those jobs? I guess pixies or lentil powered robots or something.

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No. Welfare should be contribution based and time limited.

Contribution-based means you're stuffed if you need it when young and fine if you need it when old. It's not the answer. Time-limited is only up to a point, if it reaches a point where someone genuinely trying gets told to eff off and starve then it's failed. The big elephant in the room though is that we simply don't have any practical need for everyone to work full time any more.

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I do wonder how things work in lefty world. Bennett or one of the other green party crazies last election was going on about no one should have to do these awful jobs like being a bin man or working in McDonalds. Which simply begs the question, who is going to do those jobs? I guess pixies or lentil powered robots or something.

I wouldn't want to work in McDonalds but being a bin man doesn't sound like a particularly awful job.

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One consistent feature of all pro-immigration people (in my admittedly limited experience) seems to be that they don't tend to do anything that produces anything themselves. You get lots of left wing benefit claimants, lots of council workers and students, some of the banker type people, but I don't know anyone who works in a shop, drives a bus or runs a small business who is in favour of unfettered immigration.

I was thinking the other day that if the referendum is a victory for Remain then the nuclear option for UKIP might be to encourage all 4 million people that voted for them in the last general election to go on a national strike. Fewer shelves getting stacked, fewer trains being driven, fewer deliveries made, shops closed, roadworks abandoned, petrol stations running dry... It's the only way that the productive minority in this country can get their voice heard. Sort of an "Atlas shrugged" moment.

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