The Coming Collapse Of The Labour Party (Aka 'some Post-Referendum Musings')

[MrPin]

Politics is imploding because people so not wear recognisable Party hats any more. Conservatives should wear top hats and spats, and socialists should wear flat caps, and be covered in coal dust.

[spyguy]

Politics is imploding because people so not wear recognisable Party hats any more. Conservatives should wear top hats and spats, and socialists should wear flat caps, and be covered in coal dust.

Got your socialists wrong. Womdn in mumus

[knock out johnny]

Talking of which, could a sane green party arise in a country where the name (and in some quarters the whole concept) is tainted by its current dominance by the loony left?

That is the very definition of an oxy-moron

[MrPin]

That is the very definition of an oxy-moron

Who doesn't want a better environment? Somehow we already have one, but I don't want over zealous officials checking my bottom, a la Viz.

[happy_renting]

Labour will not collapse.

Any party that can survive a decade of leadership by Tony Blair has sufficient cognitive dissonance to survive a nuclear attack.

Stupidity is Strength.

[Dorkins]

Lab will have to put their propaganda machine into overdrive once their tribal Old Lab voters start dieing off. Probably by promising endless handouts and lots of 'free' stuff.

Replace "Labour" with "Conservatives" in that sentence and it's equally true.

It's not just Labour that are collapsing, the Conservatives are too, it's just harder to see because FPTP handed government to the party that happened to have collapsed the least by 2015.

[Economic Exile]

Replace "Labour" with "Conservatives" in that sentence and it's equally true.

It's not just Labour that are collapsing, the Conservatives are too, it's just harder to see because FPTP handed government to the party that happened to have collapsed the least by 2015.

This is what I think too.

Post referendum, whatever the result is, I suspect the political landscape will change a lot. How it will unfold I do not know. As a long standing social observer I sense (I accept that maybe it's just my own imagination) an ever growing dissatisfaction among the population with life in the UK.

Conditions appear to be ripe for new political parties forming.

At least it's all more interesting than the two horse race from the not so distant past!

[knock out johnny]

So, the europhile centre of the Tories and Labour merge. The eurosceptic right of the Tories and UKIP merge. Corbyn forges an alliance with the Greens and SNP.

Awesome

A three party state. Right wing , right wing and left wing. Not even a middle ground. What a fecking carve up

[newbonic]

Awesome

A three party state. Right wing , right wing and left wing. Not even a middle ground. What a fecking carve up

This assumes its a simplistic linear scale of left <--> right. Which is isn't any more (never has been really). It's just a metric that suited the old Lab-Lib-Tory narrative, in simpler times.

[knock out johnny]

This assumes its a simplistic linear scale of left <--> right. Which is isn't any more (never has been really). It's just a metric that suited the old Lab-Lib-Tory narrative, in simpler times.

Time will tell. I hope I'm wrong but IMHO it's what is being presented to us

What will be the middle of the road party

And I realise Left/Right labelling is very lazy and a throwback to revolutionary france

[Dorkins]

So, the europhile centre of the Tories and Labour merge. The eurosceptic right of the Tories and UKIP merge. Corbyn forges an alliance with the Greens and SNP.

Not sure the Greens would be interested in merging with a rump Old Labour still tied to the unions and which couldn't care less about environmentalism. I doubt the SNP would want to merge with a unionist party.

There's probably space in UK politics for half a dozen UK-wide parties plus Scot/Wal/NI nationalists. If this happened the UK would resemble its European neighbours much more than the 2 party politics of the US.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Good post. Its already happened in Austria (and IIRC one of the nordic countries)

The center right and left parties in austria made way for a green/independent and nationalist anti-muslim candidate.

I guess the 'centrist' (read, establishment) parties may prolong their existence a little longer by combining into essentially one party as the French establishment threaten to do should Le Pen get to the second round of voting (pretty much a certainty), but given their approach is to simply ignore the very real concerns of Islamization, I cant see them managing that beyond an election cycle or two.

Frankly, the idea that we still have a duopoly of two parties astounds me. In every other area, cartel like behaviour is treated with hostility. Half a dozen electricity companies, and people get worried, even though they account for way less than 5% of spending. Govt takes 50% of your income, and people think just two choices is 'normal'

I dont know what the answer is...perhaps to prohibit parties and have elections where candidates run as individuals?

Ultimately, unless they bring censorship of the internet ahead, im not sure what they can do. Most papers manage a measly few hundred thousand sales. Videos from youtubers like Sargon get more views than that. OK, many of his viewers may not be in the UK, but papers perhaps dont have the ability to lead opinion to the degree they think they do.

Are you still paying your subs?

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/177257-i-joined-the-labour-party-last-week/page-1

[Executive Sadman]

Are you still paying your subs?

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/177257-i-joined-the-labour-party-last-week/page-1

ha. Still got a free pen.

I've now been a member of Cons (2003), UKIP (2009) and Labour.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

ha. Still got a free pen.

I've now been a member of Cons (2003), UKIP (2009) and Labour.

I would join a political party but after buying a house I don't have the disposable income to spend on such luxuries.

You know like the 70s, when no one was a member of any political party and more and more people were able to own their own homes..

[porca misèria]

ha. Still got a free pen.

I've now been a member of Cons (2003), UKIP (2009) and Labour.

That's a bit of a harem, even without answering his question.

I've had a girlfriend who was a practicing catholic, another was a jew, another a communist. Never committed to their parties, even for show. The one whose family took the daily mail and who read it when home with them .... was just too much.

[knock out johnny]

Last girlfriend's parents were both lomg time Green Party candidates. Sje had all of the convictions about what was wrong with other people, didn't necessarily translate to her own behaviour.

90% of political conviction is inherited and comes from your parents/grandparents IMO. Most people don't genuinely know why they believe what they believe, just that they believe it very strongly.

P

Ha Ha

I was at a dinner in a restaurant with some academics "the world's foremost scholar of Proust" types

I was sitting opposite one of the younger guys there (he was finishing his phd) and got talking to his girlfriend.

She was a Brexin and for sh!ts and giggles I took a Brexit position (I was toying with Brexit, but will actually vote Brexin for business reasons) and then it turns out that she was also a green. This revelation came about as she was vociferously trying to get me to change my european position; it was for the common good and I was being selfish thinking only of myself and we had to make compromises in life and it had parallels with limiting our carbon footprint to reduce global warming and any fool could see my position was wrong

She kept telling me how she knew so much more about it, as both her parents were pretty high up in the green party/environmental movemet. It began getting quite heated from her, so much so that the world's foremost scholar of Proust (for whom the dinner was held in honour of, came over to see what the commotion was and try and calm things down).

She abated slightly, until I pointed to her plate and asked her how she could justify ordering the steak yet tell me I had to make sacrifices for the planet - to which she told me eating meat was one of her compromises and a great personal struggle

I asked her why she was allowed to choose what her compromises in life were but she was trying to dictate what my compromises should be. This carried on for a while and then she began to invoke the "think of the children" argument - I joke not - which I was having no truck with. Ultimately she got so angry with me and I mean shouting mad, that she stormed out of the restaurant mid-meal, dragging her poor boyfriend with her.

The only thing that saved my bacon was another academic who watched the entire discussion and vouched that I had said nothing wrong, that and the proust guy is a very good friend, but I did feel very pressured

These people are bullies and hypocrites - heaven help us if they ever get into power. They would smile as they feed us feet first into a woodchipper while telling us it's all for the best. Fecking terrifying

[RentingForever]

Ha Ha

I was at a dinner in a restaurant with some academics "the world's foremost scholar of Proust" types

I was sitting opposite one of the younger guys there (he was finishing his phd) and got talking to his girlfriend.

She was a Brexin and for sh!ts and giggles I took a Brexit position (I was toying with Brexit, but will actually vote Brexin for business reasons) and then it turns out that she was also a green. This revelation came about as she was vociferously trying to get me to change my european position; it was for the common good and I was being selfish thinking only of myself and we had to make compromises in life and it had parallels with limiting our carbon footprint to reduce global warming and any fool could see my position was wrong

She kept telling me how she knew so much more about it, as both her parents were pretty high up in the green party/environmental movemet. It began getting quite heated from her, so much so that the world's foremost scholar of Proust (for whom the dinner was held in honour of, came over to see what the commotion was and try and calm things down).

She abated slightly, until I pointed to her plate and asked her how she could justify ordering the steak yet tell me I had to make sacrifices for the planet - to which she told me eating meat was one of her compromises and a great personal struggle

I asked her why she was allowed to choose what her compromises in life were but she was trying to dictate what my compromises should be. This carried on for a while and then she began to invoke the "think of the children" argument - I joke not - which I was having no truck with. Ultimately she got so angry with me and I mean shouting mad, that she stormed out of the restaurant mid-meal, dragging her poor boyfriend with her.

The only thing that saved my bacon was another academic who watched the entire discussion and vouched that I had said nothing wrong, that and the proust guy is a very good friend, but I did feel very pressured

These people are bullies and hypocrites - heaven help us if they ever get into power. They would smile as they feed us feet first into a woodchipper while telling us it's all for the best. Fecking terrifying

As a party it's true that the Greens are in the Remain camp - but of the 'let's stay so we can reform it' persuasion. But it's by no means an overwhelming view within the party, built as it is on the idea of decisions being made at the most local level possible. Take Jenny Jones for example: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/08/eu-reform-green-brexit

[John51]

Last girlfriend's parents were both lomg time Green Party candidates. Sje had all of the convictions about what was wrong with other people, didn't necessarily translate to her own behaviour.

90% of political conviction is inherited and comes from your parents/grandparents IMO. Most people don't genuinely know why they believe what they believe, just that they believe it very strongly.

P

My father was in the Royal Navy for over 20 years. They have a rule in the mess that there is no talk of sport, politics, religion or another drinkers SO.

So that kind of stuff didn't get talked about at home. Apart from one conversation I had with him.

Dad, do you think that we should bring back capital punishment?

Yes.

Dad, do you think that we should bring back corporal punishment?

Yes.

Dad, do you think that we should deport all of the coloureds?

Yes.

Dad, will you be voting for the National Front?

I'm not voting for that bunch of Nazi bastards!

[Will!]

I don`t know what will happen but the labour party will have to face some cold hard truth`s regardless of the outcome of the referendum as it`s looking like their "core" voters the working class are voting leave lockstock and barrel

But not quite yet:

MPs submit Corbyn no confidence motion

The Parliamentary Labour Party doesn't like a leader who understands why Labour voters voted to Leave!

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Next up for the Labour Party we have the publication of the chilcot inquiry in 2 weeks.

[stormymonday_2011]

The parties that come to terms with the consequences of the EU Referendum leave vote quickest will do best. Easy for the SNP and Sinn Fein as they have the script already written. Harder for the Tories, UKIP and Labour who for different reasons have problems posed to them by the results. The Conservatives are usually the most pragmatic party and they look at the moment to be accepting the vote outcome quickest. If they shoe in a new leader quickly and come up with some half convincing proposals for an independent UK role in the world then they will have a fighting chance of staying in power. Tougher for UKIP whose raison d,etre was in some way both vindicated and destroyed by last night's vote. They might have a future as a party of the left if they can hang onto disillusioned Labour voters by offering some sort of mixture of socialism and nationalism like the SNP. The real basket case is Labour who appear hopelessly out of touch with their core white working class vote. Passing no confidence votes in Corbyn might make the MPs feel better but the vote last night was as much against the New Labour legacy as the current leadership.

When I saw the result this morning I thought it was actually some sort of vindication in part of the arguments some dead Labour politicians most notably Peter Shore, Tony Benn and Michael Foot all of whom campaigned to take Britain out of the European Union. In particular Peter Shores book Separate Ways is still the definitive argument against Britain joining a European confederation. Farage etc all have largely lived off his legacy while Labour have disastrously ignored it. Worth reading the Amazon Review which shows how prescient his predictions proved to be

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Separate-Ways-Britain-Peter-Shore/dp/0715629727/278-1805952-7353147?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

[The Masked Tulip]

The parties that come to terms with the consequences of the EU Referendum leave vote quickest will do best. Easy for the SNP and Sinn Fein as they have the script already written. Harder for the Tories, UKIP and Labour who for different reasons have problems posed to them by the results. The Conservatives are usually the most pragmatic party and they look at the moment to be accepting the vote outcome quickest. If they shoe in a new leader quickly and come up with some half convincing proposals for an independent UK role in the world then they will have a fighting chance of staying in power. Tougher for UKIP whose raison d,etre was in some way both vindicated and destroyed by last night's vote. They might have a future as a party of the left if they can hang onto disillusioned Labour voters by offering some sort of mixture of socialism and nationalism like the SNP. The real basket case is Labour who appear hopelessly out of touch with their core white working class vote. Passing no confidence votes in Corbyn might make the MPs feel better but the vote last night was as much against the New Labour legacy as the current leadership.

When I saw the result this morning I thought it was actually some sort of vindication in part of the arguments some dead Labour politicians most notably Peter Shore, Tony Benn and Michael Foot all of whom campaigned to take Britain out of the European Union. In particular Peter Shores book Separate Ways is still the definitive argument against Britain joining a European confederation. Farage etc all have largely lived off his legacy while Labour have disastrously ignored it. Worth reading the Amazon Review which shows how prescient his predictions proved to be

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Separate-Ways-Britain-Peter-Shore/dp/0715629727/278-1805952-7353147?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

I enjoyed that.

[reddog]

I feel sorry for Jeremy, seriously though, why didn't he ignore the spin doctors and go with his heart and back Brexit. The country would be a lot more united now.

[Ash4781]

Re whether the pledge to honour the referendum or not.

Clearly that would precipitate a dramatic split in the Tories.

However, if Corbyn supported not honouring the referendum, he would lose vast amounts of electoral territory to UKIP. But a refusal to do so could trigger a Blairite rebellion in his own party.

And so that could be how a centrist coalition of the Cameronite and Blairite factions who do not represent their electorate may occur to override the electorate's decision "in the national interest".

They have been campaigning side by side for a while in this campaign. Could they both split ?

edit - surely this would trigger a general election?

[ubuntu]

The sheer arrogant stupidity of the Labour elite and PLP knows no bounds, they wanted a leader who would have alienated even more of their core traditional working class vote by campaigning even more vociferously for Remain.