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anonguest

Possession Of Dangerous Chemicals

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Gradually, bit by bit, there is less and less of private harmless activity that is not being regulated (under threat of serious criminal conviction!) by TPTB in some way or another. Worse still is the often complete lack of publicity to at least warn people that they may need to take steps to keep themselves on the right side of the law!

I am, frankly, growing tired of this ever growing list of things we may not do and the expectation that the onus be on us to keep abreast of every new bit of obscure legislation.

It is now, apparently, a serious criminal offence to be in mere possession of any one of a number of chemicals deemed dangerous (primarily those designated as explosives 'precursors'. i.e essential to making explosives). Furthermore the threshold for concentration of some of these chemicals is such that many people quite possibly have such materials and think nothing of it - for example Nitric Acid of more than just 3% concentration!!!

To cut a long story short.......I have some of these chemicals, so listed by the Home Office. Safely stored, long since been last used and long since almost forgotten about e.g. small bottle of Mercury (actually bought from my old dentist!), 30% hydrogen Peroxide, etc. All used for various perfectly innocent purposes long ago.

Apparently the law came in to force earlier this year and unlicenced possession after that date became a serious offence.

So.....do I effectively declare such possession to the Home Office whilst applying for my licence? and risk facing prosecution for clearly having had them unlicenced after the date of commencement of this new law? Something that as a law abiding citizen all my life I would abhor.

Or do I just say "enough is enough" as far as this endless nanny state nonsense goes - and effectively say "get stuffed" to TPTB and ignore it (given the small amounts involved) and keep them quietly stashed?

I certainly aint going to flush them down the toilet!

Decisions decisions........

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I carry knives around. I want a decent knife as I might want to cut something. I prefer not to be too weak and give in or worry about their endless laws as you've just lost, if you do.

I have been arrested and searched, in the past, and there's never been any mention of the knives despite being illegally large fixed blades.

Governments are getting very afraid of their own populations, it seems.

Is Hexamine on the list? Anyone selling camping equipment has probably got a load of it.

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I carry knives around. I want a decent knife as I might want to cut something. I prefer not to be too weak and give in or worry about their endless laws as you've just lost, if you do.

I have been arrested and searched, in the past, and there's never been any mention of the knives despite being illegally large fixed blades.

Governments are getting very afraid of their own populations, it seems.

Is Hexamine on the list? Anyone selling camping equipment has probably got a load of it.

IF, and I say IF, I understand the rules and regs as I have read them.....Hexamine is not, yet, a restricted material (subjetc to licence to own) but is deisgnated a 'reportable' material (i.e. the retailer must record customer details and notify the authorities)

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Where on earth do you live that you might need to randomly cut something with a big knife?

To be fair the issue of carrying large knives on ones person is a bit different - if only because it is a much more publicised bit of law that everyone 'knows' one should not do unless they have a legitimate reason to do so (e.g. required as part of ones work/trade, etc).

This is a different situation. A new law (with hefty penalties!) introduced with, as far as I saw, no publicity. I mean....did anyone here recall recently seeing a TV news report, however brief, mention that this new law was coming into force and that, possibly, thousands of people up and down the land will fall foul of it if they don't declare that they have a bottle of such and such, and apply for a licence to continue to be allowed to keep it. I certainly didn't!

This is a ludicrous, and shameful, state of affairs.

OK, so the numbers of people up down the land who may, at this very moment have a bottle of Nitric Acid of more than 3% concentration or concentrated hydrogen peroxide be pitifully small??? but it could well be thousands?? And so now all these people have, at a stroke, become criminals. Liable to arrest, conviction, on the DNA database, etc etc.

I am frankly disgusted that I now, by pure chance, find myself to be on the wrong side of the law by virtue of something once taken for granted to be lawful is now unlawful.

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So.....do I effectively declare such possession to the Home Office whilst applying for my licence? and risk facing prosecution for clearly having had them unlicenced after the date of commencement of this new law? Something that as a law abiding citizen all my life I would abhor.

Hand them in to the police. The easiest thing is to put them in an anonymous package and post them to the local police headquarters.

Edit. Or indeed post them directly to the Home Office.

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The easiest thing is to put them in an anonymous package and post them to the local police headquarters.

Edit. Or indeed post them directly to the Home Office.

:lol::lol::lol:

Don't forget the HAZMAT warnings all over the package!

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Hand them in to the police. The easiest thing is to put them in an anonymous package and post them to the local police headquarters.

Edit. Or indeed post them directly to the Home Office.

You're missing the point. Two points actually.

(1) This is my personal property. It has some financial value attached to it. It amounts to confiscation of private property without compensation by TPTB.

(2) You clearly have a quaint and innocent view of the authorities being fair minded and 'understanding' of genuine innicent mistakes. I would wager good money that if I did as you say and, like a good little boy, went to my local police station and handed them over that I would be asked for ID, etc and be cautioned of possible prosecution.

IF there are any resident plods here that can offer an opinion/advice I would be grateful to hear it.

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Do you have a link to the list?

Clearly there are a number of people interested in this revelation! I wonder just how many people up and down the land are effectively going to be snared by this new legal net!?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosives-precursors/supplying-explosives-precursors-and-poison#regulated-substances

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(2) You clearly have a quaint and innocent view of the authorities being fair minded and 'understanding' of genuine innicent mistakes. I would wager good money that if I did as you say and, like a good little boy, went to my local police station and handed them over that I would not be asked for ID, etc and be cautioned of possible prosecution.

I think Scunnered was joking, try to imagine what would happen if police headquarters or the home office received an anonymous package full of unknown (to them) liquids and powders...

It would probably make the evening news and the words 'terrorist attack' would be mentioned. :ph34r:

Thanks for the link, btw.

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Out of curiosity I googled 'EPP licence' and found a forum about deer stalking where people were talking about the implications for amateur taxidermy. It's a funny old world.

For sure the population of taxidermists can't be that huge?

but even so it supports my gut feeling that there will likely be thousands of people throughout the country that would already have any one or more of these now restricted chemicals for any one of a variety of perfectly innocent purposes - even I never thought of taxidermy!

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It just strikes me that this sort of legislation, whilst no doubt well intentioned, is rather like gun laws. You put up a number of legal hoops people have to go through to own one for legitiamte purposes but violent criminals will ignore them and illegally acquire them as they see fit.

Similarly, any would be terrorist is hardly going to apply for one of these stupid home office licences? They'll just nick the stuff from a retailer!

Certainly there need to be laws governing the safe keeping and safe disposal, for public safety reasons, By all means require proof of ID at time of purchase and requirement to record that information.....but a £40 licence (for only three years) just to buy a bottle of hydrogen peroxide!!??? That's just nuts and bureacracy gone mad.

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Where on earth do you live that you might need to randomly cut something with a big knife?

If I'm in Chipping Norton and get jumped by some punks, armed with a knife, it's essential to be able to quip 'that's not a knife!'.

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Clearly there are a number of people interested in this revelation! I wonder just how many people up and down the land are effectively going to be snared by this new legal net!?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosives-precursors/supplying-explosives-precursors-and-poison#regulated-substances

Those regulations, as I interpret them, relate only to the supply of chemicals, not possession.

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Those regulations, as I interpret them, relate only to the supply of chemicals, not possession.

It's from Europe, I see from the bottom of that link, so we'll soon be able to go back to merrily blowing each other up without Johnny Foreigner interfering:

EU regulation 98/2013 on the marketing and use of explosives precursors requires EU member states to restrict sales of certain substances and mixtures that can be misused for the illicit manufacture of explosives.

Unless there's been some change to the composition of solid fuel for camping, so it's no longer such a ready source of hexamine, I've never heard of this legislation before and I literally sell tonnes of it and there seems to be plenty for sale online and I can't imagine any ID checks take place. Although I did see recently Amazon makes its couriers check ID when delivering knives.

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I suspect that realistically the powers that be don't expect the new laws to apply retroactively to small domestic quantities - but now that you've made a fuss about it, they would expect you to dispose of safely or apply for a licence.

A fringe benefit that probably the majority of us are breaking some law or another through ignorance, sheer bloodymindedness etc. That's very useful if they decide to make an example of, or detain, any of us in the future.

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They've changed the law on oxalic acid. Which is something some beekeepers have used for a few years for treating varroa. You can now buy a lovely sachet of it which is a pre-measured amount to legally treat your hives with. Or you can continue to break the law and use a tiny bit of the huge sack you have got of it.
But you're not supposed to be able to buy it anymore without a licence fee.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosives-precursors/supplying-explosives-precursors-and-poison

For advice on verifying a business customer, you can either:

contact epp@homeoffice.pnn.police.uk
locate your local police counter-terrorism security adviser and complete the contact request form

Reportable substances

Explosive precursors:

ammonium nitrate
acetone
hexamine
sulphuric acid
potassium nitrate
sodium nitrate
calcium nitrate
calcium ammonium nitrate
Poisons:

Aldicarb
Alpha-chloralose
Ammonia 10% w/w
Arsenic, compounds of, the following: calcium arsenites; copper acetoarsenite; copper arsenates; copper arsenites; lead arsenates
Barium, salts of, the following: barium carbonate; barium silicofluoride
Carbofuran
Cycloheximide
Dinitrocresols (DNOC) their compounds with a metal or a base
Dinoseb its compounds with a metal or a base
Dinoterb
Drazoxolon; its salts
Endosulfan
Endothal its salts
Endrin
Fentin compounds of
Formaldehyde 5% w/w
Formic acid 25% w/w
Hydrochloric acid 10% w/w
Hydrofluoric acid alkali metal bifluorides; ammonium bifluoride alkali metal fluorides; ammonium fluoride sodium silicofluoride
Mercuric chloride mercuric iodide; organic compounds of mercury except compounds that contain a methyl (CH3) group directly linked to the mercury atom
Metallic oxalates
Methomyl
Nicotine its salts; its quaternary compounds
Nitrobenzene 0.1% w/w
Oxamyl
Paraquat salts of
Phenols (as defined in part 2 of this schedule) in substances containing no more than 60%, weight in weight, of phenols; compounds of phenols with a metal in substances containing no more than the equivalent of 60%, weight in weight, of phenols
Phosphoric acid
Phosphorus compounds, the following: azinphos-methyl, chlorfenvinphos, demephion, demeton-S-methyl, demeton-S-methyl sulphone, dialifos, dichlorvos, dioxathion, disulfoton, fonofos, mecarbam, mephosfolan, methidathion, mevinphos, omethoate, oxydemeton-methyl, parathion, phenkapton, phorate, phosphamidon, pirimiphos-ethyl, quinalphos, thiometon, thionazin, triazophos, vamidothion
Potassium hydroxide 17% of total caustic alkalinity
Sodium hydroxide 12% of total caustic alkalinity
Sodium nitrite
Thiofanox
Zinc phosphide

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Those regulations, as I interpret them, relate only to the supply of chemicals, not possession.

you interpret them wrongly - and read it wrongly. It is actually quite explicit. IF you possess here and now any of those restricted chemicals without a licence you are breaking the law - and subject to fine and/or imprisonment of up to 2 years!

Think about that. Granny Smith has an old bottle of 15% Hydrogen Peroxide lying about somewhere, from the days when selling stuff like that no-one batted an eyelid over, and she will (not could, but will) be dragged through the judicial system for it - and have a record!

I say, again, I am not convinced that the numbers affected by this obscure legislation are so small. Even IF the numbers are small it is still highly unsporting to de facto criminalise otherwise lawbiding citizens by stealth.

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When I was growing up, not that long ago, it was fairly easy to not be a criminal. A few things were prohibited - such robbing and injuring people but mostly you could get on and do what you liked. Which, as rural boy, for me included walking round with a sheath knife, cycling to mate's farms with a gun, making "fireworks" (would probably today be called IEDs), etc.

These days, I suspect the vast majority of the population are criminals - "enemies of the state", not "of the people" though.

In my tinfoil hat moments, I've wondered if the push for electric cars is regarded as having the side benefit of removing a high energy substance (petrol) from the hands of the public. The police already try and prevent petrol stations from selling it to anyone without a car. I discovered this when I cycled round to get some fuel for my mower.

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When I was growing up, not that long ago, it was fairly easy to not be a criminal. A few things were prohibited - such robbing and injuring people but mostly you could get on and do what you liked. Which, as rural boy, for me included walking round with a sheath knife, cycling to mate's farms with a gun, making "fireworks" (would probably today be called IEDs), etc.

These days, I suspect the vast majority of the population are criminals - "enemies of the state", not "of the people" though.

In my tinfoil hat moments, I've wondered if the push for electric cars is regarded as having the side benefit of removing a high energy substance (petrol) from the hands of the public. The police already try and prevent petrol stations from selling it to anyone without a car. I discovered this when I cycled round to get some fuel for my mower.

Next time you should take your electric car instead

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When I was growing up, not that long ago, it was fairly easy to not be a criminal. A few things were prohibited - such robbing and injuring people but mostly you could get on and do what you liked. Which, as rural boy, for me included walking round with a sheath knife, cycling to mate's farms with a gun, making "fireworks" (would probably today be called IEDs), etc.

These days, I suspect the vast majority of the population are criminals - "enemies of the state", not "of the people" though.

In my tinfoil hat moments, I've wondered if the push for electric cars is regarded as having the side benefit of removing a high energy substance (petrol) from the hands of the public. The police already try and prevent petrol stations from selling it to anyone without a car. I discovered this when I cycled round to get some fuel for my mower.

Sums up the state of affairs, and my reaction to this latest restriction on personal activity, very well.

Methinks a visit to my MP is in order. To protest at being made a criminal overnight and not being given a reasonable opportunity to prevent it from happening, i.e. no meaningful (if any!) advance warning/publicity.

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When I was growing up, not that long ago, it was fairly easy to not be a criminal. A few things were prohibited - such robbing and injuring people but mostly you could get on and do what you liked. Which, as rural boy, for me included walking round with a sheath knife, cycling to mate's farms with a gun, making "fireworks" (would probably today be called IEDs), etc.

These days, I suspect the vast majority of the population are criminals - "enemies of the state", not "of the people" though.

In my tinfoil hat moments, I've wondered if the push for electric cars is regarded as having the side benefit of removing a high energy substance (petrol) from the hands of the public. The police already try and prevent petrol stations from selling it to anyone without a car. I discovered this when I cycled round to get some fuel for my mower.

One of the more inciteful observations about the USSR was that everything was either forbidden or obligatory

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