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The Official Brexit - Remain Thread - All New Threads Will Be Merged Into This One


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If the Greek get even more hungbout to dry - I think mass protests and riots will lead them to just sucking it up - leaving the EU , putting their army and navy on the shore - and simply sending any 'refugees' packing.

There is only so much the people of one country will take.

nah. They're EU's bitches. They had the chance, they swallowed c.ck.

So far yes. But everything has a limit.

Perhaps a repeat of the Spartans, throwing the weak off Mount Taygetus

Well if history says the Greeks will turn spartan when they get riled up by the migrants.....

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then what will the Germans turn into when they implode.... :o:o:o:o:o:o

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Sony kind of lost it's market after apple entered with it's massive storage capacity iPod's.

It's sad really, but like much of Japan, Sony stopped beign market leader since the 90's.

Still got my tape Walkman for nostalgic reasons. My MP3 player is a Sony Walkman. I still like to pretend it's the 90's.

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Just my opinion but, most 16 yo's don't know what they wan't to do in life, should they be voting?

Since they have far more skin in the game than, say, over 65 pensioners. Absolutely they should.

Personally I would disenfranchise pensioners. They had their go.

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Automotive Engineer.....

Well, I was going to use `8 track` to show how far I am behind the times. I am one of HPC`s Amish section btw. I`ve got lots of nice hats,

You `ll be pleased to hear that I got my 23 year old Nissan Serena through It`s MOT yesterday (no horses for me!) and I`m thinking of getting a computer .......sometime.

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Yeah right - keep voting.

So it's more of the usual. The UK people will be told one thing (it's a final package - the best that can be agreed) but in the background something completely different is happening - yet for sure it's the best that Cameron and his pals can achieve.

You can't trust them one inch.

Vote No - at the very least it's the best negotiating position.

Your comment re. better negotiating position is very true and got me thinking...

have they said what will happen if we do vote NO! ?

I can't imagine for one moment that the EU will simply give a gaelic shug and say "oh well thats that, au revoir...." - how would it work? whats the timeframe? what process would there be for a further vote? would they re negotiate or not?

I've seen nothing about a time bar on another vote? yet I'm sure a la Ireland we'll be told to do it again - but will they sweeten the deal for a re run? - as you say our position would be MUCH stronger if we voted out as NO WAY they would want to lose a big cash payer and we're still a considerable influence or at least have the ear of the Commonwealth and to some extent the USA on the world stage - The EU would be weaker and poorer without us in - which gives us a stronger hand.

Will the EU maybe 'clarify' a few bits near the election to 'put peoples minds at rest' especially if the polls aren't going their way?, just like in Scotland when Camoron was basically bribing the whole country to stay in with last minute concessions.

If Dave is serious about a June vote thats less than 5 months to potentially re draft our entire legal and political system!? how would that work? and what about stuff like all the UK MEP's and their entourages on the Brussells gravy train - would they just be kicked out? elected politicians? sounds very complicated and messy.

Don't get me wrong I'm 100% in favour of getting out - and don't think any of these problems are unsolvable, but it all just seems very vague. Is this a deliberate ploy - make it seem really hard / complicated / messy / expensive to deter people from thinking about voting out? I'd guess so - make it as unclear and 'scary' as possible.

Anyone know of any good info / websites that covers the practicalities of leaving and the expected timescales for these potentially MASSIVE changes (for the better) to occur in? I'm sure they'll drag it out for years if need be.

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have they said what will happen if we do vote NO! ?

we would have to vote again until we came up with the correct answer

If Dave is serious about a June vote thats less than 5 months to potentially re draft our entire legal and political system!? how would that work? and what about stuff like all the UK MEP's and their entourages on the Brussells gravy train - would they just be kicked out? elected politicians? sounds very complicated and messy.

We wouldn't literally have to leave overnight. I expect it would be planned for a year or two in the future.

In fact, thinkng about it, it wouldn't surprise me if they said they needed a decade to prepare for it, after which there would be another referendum, just to make sure we hdn't changed our minds...

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Your comment re. better negotiating position is very true and got me thinking...

have they said what will happen if we do vote NO! ?

I can't imagine for one moment that the EU will simply give a gaelic shug and say "oh well thats that, au revoir...." - how would it work? whats the timeframe? what process would there be for a further vote? would they re negotiate or not?

I've seen nothing about a time bar on another vote? yet I'm sure a la Ireland we'll be told to do it again - but will they sweeten the deal for a re run? - as you say our position would be MUCH stronger if we voted out as NO WAY they would want to lose a big cash payer and we're still a considerable influence or at least have the ear of the Commonwealth and to some extent the USA on the world stage - The EU would be weaker and poorer without us in - which gives us a stronger hand.

Will the EU maybe 'clarify' a few bits near the election to 'put peoples minds at rest' especially if the polls aren't going their way?, just like in Scotland when Camoron was basically bribing the whole country to stay in with last minute concessions.

If Dave is serious about a June vote thats less than 5 months to potentially re draft our entire legal and political system!? how would that work? and what about stuff like all the UK MEP's and their entourages on the Brussells gravy train - would they just be kicked out? elected politicians? sounds very complicated and messy.

Don't get me wrong I'm 100% in favour of getting out - and don't think any of these problems are unsolvable, but it all just seems very vague. Is this a deliberate ploy - make it seem really hard / complicated / messy / expensive to deter people from thinking about voting out? I'd guess so - make it as unclear and 'scary' as possible.

Anyone know of any good info / websites that covers the practicalities of leaving and the expected timescales for these potentially MASSIVE changes (for the better) to occur in? I'm sure they'll drag it out for years if need be.

Yes, deliberate ploy IMO, but the average punter voting won`t give a monkeys about how it will be unwound, they will just want out. The PTB as usual are mis-reading the mood of the public IMO. The deal so far seems to be, if you vote to stay in there will be a clause (controlled by Brussels ) that may or may not let you limit benefits to immigrants at some point in the future if a very high number (dictated by Brussels) is breached. Pure B.S. Are they fast tracking it to get a vote before the Italian banks blow up?

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we would have to vote again until we came up with the correct answer

We wouldn't literally have to leave overnight. I expect it would be planned for a year or two in the future.

In fact, thinkng about it, it wouldn't surprise me if they said they needed a decade to prepare for it, after which there would be another referendum, just to make sure we hdn't changed our minds...

I agree they could drag it out for ages, they'll pretend the world will instantly stop turning and Britain will sink into the North Sea the moment the YES! vote falters, complete cobblers obviously but scary to many (mainly stupid) people.

....and should the unthinkable incorrect result be mistakenly cast redo it...and if needs be again

and if that fails - well drag out leaving for 10 years rinse and repeat. It's not as if ANY of the LibLabCon party seriously want out anyway.

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I agree they could drag it out for ages, they'll pretend the world will instantly stop turning and Britain will sink into the North Sea the moment the YES! vote falters, complete cobblers obviously but scary to many (mainly stupid) people.

....and should the unthinkable incorrect result be mistakenly cast redo it...and if needs be again

and if that fails - well drag out leaving for 10 years rinse and repeat. It's not as if ANY of the LibLabCon party seriously want out anyway.

I believe it will all collapse in on itself before they can drag it out too long, hence the talk of months rather than years to a vote. We will be having another referendum pretty soon after any Stay vote anyway IMO, because we will need to unclip from the crashing debt soaked carcass. Whichever way we vote won`t change the eventual outcome for this un democratic monstrosity.

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Yes, deliberate ploy IMO, but the average punter voting won`t give a monkeys about how it will be unwound, they will just want out. The PTB as usual are mis-reading the mood of the public IMO. The deal so far seems to be, if you vote to stay in there will be a clause (controlled by Brussels ) that may or may not let you limit benefits to immigrants at some point in the future if a very high number (dictated by Brussels) is breached. Pure B.S. Are they fast tracking it to get a vote before the Italian banks blow up?

yeah I agree, I think they're misreading the anti status quo feeling out there. They were saying on the pathetic BBC2 Daily Politics at lunchtime how 'whatever the prime minister decides (as if it were in dobt lol) would decide it - as the majority of people will just go with what he recommends. hmmmm....I'm not so sure about that. I reckon it'll be close either way though.

But there's still plenty of people doing OK at the moment, have a VI of some sort, are utterly disinterested or simply too stupid to understand - and won't dare change the status quo.

Will all the moaners actually turn out and vote? or will they just chunter on down the pub how they've had enough blah blah but bottle it at the last minute 'cos they don't wanna lose their benefits innit !' (like the Scots bottled it).

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I agree they could drag it out for ages, they'll pretend the world will instantly stop turning and Britain will sink into the North Sea the moment the YES! vote falters, complete cobblers obviously but scary to many (mainly stupid) people.

....and should the unthinkable incorrect result be mistakenly cast redo it...and if needs be again

and if that fails - well drag out leaving for 10 years rinse and repeat. It's not as if ANY of the LibLabCon party seriously want out anyway.

Once the vote is in the future direction of the UK will be set in stone.

We will be at liberty to ignore directives and control our borders to suit eve if it does take 10 years to get out.

If the EU don't like it then they can whistle for our sub in the interim.

Never forget they need us far more than we need them.... They will be keen to strike a separate trade deal with us.

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Your comment re. better negotiating position is very true and got me thinking...

have they said what will happen if we do vote NO! ?

I can't imagine for one moment that the EU will simply give a gaelic shug and say "oh well thats that, au revoir...." - how would it work? whats the timeframe? what process would there be for a further vote? would they re negotiate or not?

I've seen nothing about a time bar on another vote? yet I'm sure a la Ireland we'll be told to do it again - but will they sweeten the deal for a re run? - as you say our position would be MUCH stronger if we voted out as NO WAY they would want to lose a big cash payer and we're still a considerable influence or at least have the ear of the Commonwealth and to some extent the USA on the world stage - The EU would be weaker and poorer without us in - which gives us a stronger hand.

This is the correct answer - you can quite happily vote NO to Europe in the knowledge that another vote will be foisted upon you by an establishment who are quite happy to be in.

The second vote will actually require some proper concessions from the EC if it's to return 'YES' (plus probably a whole lot of electoral fiddling and dirty tricks) and since the so called 'concessions' that Cameron has managed to 'secure' are bloody pathetic,if you want to at least get something out of selling out your sovereignty for ever a NO vote is the only way to get anything meaningful.

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I agree they could drag it out for ages, they'll pretend the world will instantly stop turning and Britain will sink into the North Sea the moment the YES! vote falters, complete cobblers obviously but scary to many (mainly stupid) people.

....and should the unthinkable incorrect result be mistakenly cast redo it...and if needs be again

and if that fails - well drag out leaving for 10 years rinse and repeat. It's not as if ANY of the LibLabCon party seriously want out anyway.

Just look at the Scottish independence referendum for the template.

You can already see the BBC and other media using the same tactics to keep the UK in.

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The biggest problems with the EU for me are:

The ridiculous red tape imposed on small businesses. VATMOSS is disgusting. Online sellers now have to have enterprise-level payment and database systems in order to deal with 81 different rates of VAT in what should be a single market. Even if they're below the UK VAT threshold. Despite a concerted lobbying campaign, our own authorities appear powerless (or unwilling) to modify the regulations now that the problems have become apparent.

The overcrowding, cost of living increases, and price inflation caused by having a continent's worth of jobseekers cram themselves inside the M25. These aren't benefit tourists. These are mobile, educated workers who face the same dilemma as UK workers who find that London is one of the only viable places to build a career. But as a language-handicapped native English speaker, I am significantly less mobile and at a distinct disadvantage.

So Cameron's changes miss the mark entirely for me. The benefits issue is his own fault, anyway. Why do UK citizens need their wages topped up with tax credits and housing benefit in the first place?!

I'm actually all for an EU superstate - but let's do it properly, with harmonized tax rates and benefits system, everyone in the Euro, and work towards a common language so we all have the same opportunities (Esperanto classes, anyone?). But as it is I'm leaning heavily towards a leave vote - I hope it'll give our 'establishment' a much-needed shake up. This 'renegotiation' is a pantomime that has done nothing to change my mind.

Plus one to this.

Since they have far more skin in the game than, say, over 65 pensioners. Absolutely they should.

Personally I would disenfranchise pensioners. They had their go.

And if it was between 16-18 year olds and pensioners I'd go with the young uns. Both groups is the sensible choice.

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From The wail story

Officials have given out 1.9million national insurance numbers to EU citizens in four years – while logging only 751,000 arrivals.

Are you technically still a migrant once you have a NI number?

What do you need an NI number for? To claim benefits, pay tax?

Never take any numbers from the Daily Wail at face value

How many 16-18 year olds are there who need to be issued an NI number every year?

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I wouldn't let anybody expected to live less than 15 years vote. The blue rinse voted against their grandkids in the Scots referendum in the main. These are the most easily bought and easily misled constituents IMO

I used to be Yes, now I'm No, as I think it will bring the end game sooner.

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I do think you have underestimated the angst the over 65s feel about what their country has become and would vote 'no' - excepting those 'rich' ones with second homes on the continent and their cheap 'migrant' staff.

also they do care about their children/grandchildren and would like the UK to have a bit of pride and self-determination.

I suspect the younger cohort are the ones who are pro EU and god help us if the 16 year olds have a say.

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i know plenty. The demographic is boomer/people who watch the BBC too much.

Generally, people who are scared of change and like the status quo - even if it's a poor outcome for them!

Not in my case. OAPs are against it.

The boomers/oldies watch the telly and see hordes of Muslim arriving through Greece.

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I was in the middle of a debate yesterday with more than a dozen people and one loud mouth. I came away looking at the coming referendum with different and more optimistic eyes. It was probably a 50 50 discussion on whether to leave or not with the one loud mouth and over opinionated bloke let it be known that most of the vote out people were closet racists etc.

When ever I see anti euro types on the TV or media you always get this air of they are right wing racist nutcases. At the moment the polls are probably even, but how many I wonder will say they want to stay in pub;lic and vote no on the day. Just like so many people are ashamed to admit they vote Tory.

This is what happened up here in Jockland too. English burd I work with was just saying yesterday when we weer discussing the Scottish referendum - how shocked she was that the vote went the way it did.

She heard so much from the YES camp and so little from the NO she fully expected it to be something like 70-30 in favour of YES.

I wouldnt be surprised if we get similar. But if betting I do still think the fear factor of us leaving the EU based on nonsense will just squeeze it to the STAY camp. Going to be mighty close though.

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