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The Official Brexit - Remain Thread - All New Threads Will Be Merged Into This One


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It's all about coalfaces dear boy! Unless you're at the coalface of an issue you're not that bothered by it. If you're a 17 year old living at your mums rent free, you're not going to be overly concerned about mass immigration pushing up rents & lowering wages. Ditto if you're a retired boomer, in fact you probably enjoy the asset inflation.

However, what's happening now, is more & more people are being exposed to the coalface of mass immigration. That pro single Mum who gets her rent paid and tax credits each week whatever the level of immigration, now finds immigration so high, she can't get her kid into the local school. Those boomers I mentioned earlier? They can queue behind that Romanian, who's paid nowt into the system, at the Doctors surgery thankyou very much.

I'm betting on Brexit..

.

Edited by shindigger
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Yep. I've never really understood the position of the "left" and "right" on immigration. On the surface, the left appears more pro immigration whilst the right are most vocally against - which is in fact in direct contradiction with how the benefits (and pain) play out. Immigration drives down wages, increases competition for resources at the lower end and has profound effects (+ve or -ve, I'm not judging) on the communities of the less well off. All of these things either benefit or do not concern the rich.

You are absolutely correct, if you define the left-right axis in economic terms (collective labour vs. capital). If you consider a left-right distinction in social attitudes (liberalism vs. social conservatism), it is as you would expect.

What that suggests is that people tend to see immigration as a social rather than an economic issue. That kind of makes intuitive sense to me since it seems that both extremes of the spectrum focus on individual stories (whether poor orphans fleeing war or dangerous hook-handed extremists) as emotional touchstones rather than macro-economic effects.

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Jezza just keeps on giving:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12057349/EU-summit-reform-David-Cameron-Brexit-live.html

'Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said the Prime Minister was having to deal with what was "essentially a problem within the Conservative Party".

Speaking on a visit to the Whittington Hospital in his Islington North constituency, he criticised Mr Cameron for not mentioning workers' rights and "the social Europe we all want to see" and instead focusing on benefits.

He said the amount paid to EU migrants was a small total given to people who contributed to the UK economy as taxpayers, and restricting them would be "discriminatory".'

We are getting f-all in terms on income tax from the majority of EEs.

I owuld not be surprised if the average EE wage was well under the 12K income tax limit.

And the small total we are paying out in TCs - about 10K-20K a fcking year!

All for whatever VAT collected when they buy food.

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You are absolutely correct, if you define the left-right axis in economic terms (collective labour vs. capital). If you consider a left-right distinction in social attitudes (liberalism vs. social conservatism), it is as you would expect.

What that suggests is that people tend to see immigration as a social rather than an economic issue. That kind of makes intuitive sense to me since it seems that both extremes of the spectrum focus on individual stories (whether poor orphans fleeing war or dangerous hook-handed extremists) as emotional touchstones rather than macro-economic effects.

In he days of JSA tops then immigration was a social issue. They were not here for benefits.

Post TCs then it is social AND economic.

The TCs money is too big.

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Completely different tone from usual on the German news about Brexit. Commentators all saying EU will make concessions to Cameron. I assume this is all just part of the PR. Cameron has persuaded them all to big up the concessions while in reality conceding trifles. we will end up paying for our affrontery.

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EU Backs Visa-Free Access for Ukraine, Georgia

The European Union’s executive backed Ukraine and Georgia’s bid for visa-free access to the bloc on Friday, opening the way to more than 40 million people to potentially travel visa-free to the bloc. The European Commission said both countries had carried out the reforms they promised to enact to win Brussels’ backing and they planned to make the formal legal recommendation in early 2016. It will then be for EU governments and the European Parliament to sign off.

And turkey wants it too.

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I think it's funny reading people saying what CamOsborne should do etc.

They can't. EU says what happens.

Also there's so much complacency re #brexit ref. It'll be Remain unless the Leavers work really hard on the streets and wearing out shoe leather distributing leaflets. Contact @betteroffout to do your bit

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I put a referendum bet on with William Hill today. Out at 13/8.

If it's any help I almost didn't vote Tory on the basis I feared an in out referendum, I was quite pro Europe.

Merkel's open door policy where she decided to let in the least needy of the world's refugees, even a couple of million probably makes up 0.01% of would be migrants (and we are talking by and large able young men here) whilst not concentrating resourses on the 99.9% of the rest of the would be World migrants was a game changer for me.

Sheer bonkers policy and so inequitable to the more needy refugees left behind.

Edited by crashmonitor
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I put a referendum bet on with William Hill today. Out at 13/8.

Chatting, I think the current thing is 70% out, 30% in.

Greece was a disaster. The German immigration refugees has tipped opinion firmly over to Out.

And this is common with people I know in mainland Europe.

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If I was a betting person I believe we will vote to stay in.....simply because we will believe the tweaks and adjustments put forward.......no ifs no buts......no questions asked.

Edit to say, If all else fails, the fear factor will be taken out of the box and sold.

Edited by winkie
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A year ago I would have said it was unthinkable, now I think it is a possibility - maybe even a probability. I'm a "lefty" (by the standards of this forum, anyway :) ) and I'll be voting "out", FWIW.

Not the only one for both points. :P The Euro is done and we are watching it's slow mo implosion :lol::lol:

I think we'll stay in because any more power directed towards the peasants is unacceptable. But things don't always go to plan for the establishment.

Shall be interesting!

Edited by Assume The Opposite
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If I was a betting person I believe we will vote to stay in.....simply because we will believe the tweaks and adjustments put forward.......no ifs no buts......no questions asked.

Edit to say, If all else fails, the fear factor will be taken out of the box and sold.

I think that will mostly affect the undecided. They're going to have a hard job turning those who years ago, made up their minds they wanted out.

There's plenty of fear factors the Leave campaign can bring to the table as well, an EU army, Germans involved in controlling our borders, rabies etc.

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Chatting, I think the current thing is 70% out, 30% in.

Greece was a disaster. The German immigration refugees has tipped opinion firmly over to Out.

And this is common with people I know in mainland Europe.

From my son's contacts in Holland and his bi-annual trips there, I think the Dutch are hoping we leave and it destabilises the United States of Europe project which has been imposed on us all by stealth. Personally I'd like to see it crash and burn, it's a disgusting institution IMO.

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I think that will mostly affect the undecided. They're going to have a hard job turning those who years ago, made up their minds they wanted out.

There's plenty of fear factors the Leave campaign can bring to the table as well, an EU army, Germans involved in controlling our borders, rabies etc.

That will be most people then, more important things to deal with in life's small bubble like the X factor.....better the devil you know......also I would say the most recent immigrants are the ones more likely to want the doors closed behind them.....the rich benefit far more from Europe than the poor, the poor are more in competition with jobs, homes and resources.

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Chatting, I think the current thing is 70% out, 30% in.

Greece was a disaster. The German immigration refugees has tipped opinion firmly over to Out.

And this is common with people I know in mainland Europe.

where did you get the 70% out from? From what I've seen it's fairly even, but don't think we'd be having a referendum unless PTB thought they could get what they want. there again anything could happen between now and June to sway public opinion.

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Hopefully the British people will do what the Greeks didn't dare and call their bluff.

doubt it. the EU relies on threats and blackmail. Do as we say or we'll take your jobs. Well, the greeks have already had their jobs taken. If they still respond to threats when theyve nothing to lose, im pretty sure we'll do as the EU tell us, as people perceive we have something to lose

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