The Official Brexit - Remain Thread - All New Threads Will Be Merged Into This One

[SpectrumFX]

They see future of their children in the EU. I know this is hard for you to understand but there is a half of the UK which believes that is a better option.

Not quite half

[council dweller]

Shirley William photographed in 1981 ?

WTF ?

[SpectrumFX]

Without access to the single market, the EU will block passporting to the EU, there is no question of that. We'll lose £90 billion of our exports and a huge tax take.

The repeated assertion that 'Germany will still 'want to trade with us' is ******, The UK will not be able to do business in the EU, period.

Have a look at the passporting thread. I don't think it's a big deal myself.

The idea of an all out ban on trade with the EU is just farcical. In any case we import more from them than we export. Lose the imports and there's still a demand to be met. That means a business opportunity for somebody.

[long time lurking]

Tough luck, the referendum was to leave the EU, nothing, absolutely nothing else. You cannot add your personal list of requirements to the question.

There was nothing about what happens after we leave or before, or even when.

Parliament decides everything and a referendum doesn't override an election.

I would say that`s factually correct

But the main issue for leave voters was free movement and yes theres nothing in the deal to say thats a guarantee but it would be beyond stupid for the Tories not to take this as their mandate ...and they have already acknowledged this is their main objective when it comes to exiting the EU ..still no guarantee though

Lib Dems are proposing another vote, on the terms when we leave...... best of luck with that one

[Royw6]

Will no one think about all those German car workers jobs?

You can be as annoyed by the result as you want my friend but it doesn't change the fundamentals. Merkel is already on the record in that she wants negotiations with the UK concluded as quickly as possible.

It's true, we are leaving, people need to accept it and move on. I think we will always trade with Germany and others, there will be new red tape and requirements, but you are right, we will trade.

The question remains, what are the out voters red lines. Is it literally just immigration, would you guys be happy with eu regulations on goods and services, if not what limitations? Are you happy with the court of human justice and our continuation of its use?

Unless you share your opinions you will not get what you want - i am still forming my thoughts on what the post eu world should look like in the uk - so you'd also help me. Spunko2010 making things up about German banks is a pointless distraction.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Royw6

[geezer466]

Quite opposite they don't want to swap their core believes for nationalistic ones as their parties drift to the extremes. A half of the UK supports their views.

52% don't.....

As has already been pointed out if the referendum result was on a fptp system it would have been an overwhelming majority....

[SpectrumFX]

It's true, we are leaving, people need to accept it and move on. I think we will always trade with Germany and others, there will be new red tape and requirements, but you are right, we will trade.

The question remains, what are the out voters red lines. Is it literally just immigration, would you guys be happy with eu regulations on goods and services, if not what limitations? Are you happy with the court of human justice and our continuation of its use?

Unless you share your opinions you will not get what you want - i am still forming my thoughts on what the post eu world should look like in the uk - so you'd also help me. Spunko2010 making things up about German banks is a pointless is distraction.

All I want is rule of law, evidence based policy, and no interference in my life from moral busybodies (as per the C S Lewis quote below).

I don't think I'll get it. But one can dream

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

[geezer466]

It's true, we are leaving, people need to accept it and move on. I think we will always trade with Germany and others, there will be new red tape and requirements, but you are right, we will trade.

The question remains, what are the out voters red lines. Is it literally just immigration, would you guys be happy with eu regulations on goods and services, if not what limitations? Are you happy with the court of human justice and our continuation of its use?

Unless you share your opinions you will not get what you want - i am still forming my thoughts on what the post eu world should look like in the uk - so you'd also help me. Spunko2010 making things up about German banks is a pointless is distraction.

I would be happy to keep free movement for skills and trades needed and to do away with the red tape which means any EU migrant who wants to come here and sell the big issue for example qualifies for in work tax credits and housing benefit.

I saw that as nothing but abuse of the system. One that I for one have paid in for 40 years plus and wouldn't afforded to me if I decided to up sticks and move to Poland or Spain to work.

We already have too many Eastern European car washers what we need is people with something to offer the economy without the taxpayer having to subsidise them....

[Royw6]

I would be happy to keep free movement for skills and trades needed and to do away with the red tape which means any EU migrant who wants to come here and sell the big issue for example qualifies for in work tax credits and housing benefit.

I saw that as nothing but abuse of the system. One that I for one have paid in for 40 years plus and wouldn't afforded to me if I decided to up sticks and move to Poland or Spain to work.

We already have too many Eastern European car washers what we need is people with something to offer the economy without the taxpayer having to subsidise them....

Seems reasonable enough. If most others agree that shouldn't be too difficult to achieve, although I don't fancy washing my own car....... That might even be achievable within an eu framework, using free movement with certain caps, that is only a little bit more than call me Dave achieved, although I do think his package was sold as a big thing but looked a little lame!!!!

[knock out johnny]

I would be happy to keep free movement for skills and trades needed and to do away with the red tape which means any EU migrant who wants to come here and sell the big issue for example qualifies for in work tax credits and housing benefit.

I saw that as nothing but abuse of the system. One that I for one have paid in for 40 years plus and wouldn't afforded to me if I decided to up sticks and move to Poland or Spain to work.

We already have too many Eastern European car washers what we need is people with something to offer the economy without the taxpayer having to subsidise them....

Pretty much agree

the issue is that tax credits can't be stopped to eu arrivals without it seeming discrimatory and hence against the law (EU law as implemented in domestic law)

Why on earth couldn't they just make working tax-credits and housing benefit part of a contributory based system I don't know - it would not be seen as discriminatory and only those eu workers who had the skills to earn enough so as to live in this country without free money would come. After a reasonable period of contributions they would qualify for job seeks allowance and the other benefits should they subsequently lose their job etc

[DabHand]

I would say because a lot of the poor, excluded, doley, benefits classes (whatever you want to call them) would be utterly screwed having never held down a full time job for long enough to qualify. Unemployment is often a long term and ingrained issue. If you are trying to break that cycle then you need to make it worth having any job even at 16 hours/week with guv top ups.

Obviously the system is abused by claimants and employers alike. Feel free to suggest an alternative, after all you wont have to factor in the benefits tourist aspect for much longer*

*less than 10 years - you have my guarantee!

[Peter Hun]

the issue is that tax credits can't be stopped to eu arrivals without it seeming discrimatory and hence against the law (EU law as implemented in domestic law)

Why on earth couldn't they just make working tax-credits and housing benefit part of a contributory based system I don't know - it would not be seen as discriminatory and only those eu workers who had the skills to earn enough so as to live in this country without free money would come. After a reasonable period of contributions they would qualify for job seeks allowance and the other benefits should they subsequently lose their job etc

Probably because they wanted an excuse to leave the EU and remove the welfare state once they had.

I would say that`s factually correct

But the main issue for leave voters was free movement and yes theres nothing in the deal to say thats a guarantee but it would be beyond stupid for the Tories not to take this as their mandate ...and they have already acknowledged this is their main objective when it comes to exiting the EU ..still no guarantee though

Lib Dems are proposing another vote, on the terms when we leave...... best of luck with that one

They have a mandate to leave the EU, destroying the UK economy by losing access to the single market is not on it. I didn't vote Tory for them to destroy the country. If, by following the leave vote, they pursue policies that violate the electoral promises that got them elected, they will have a problem.

[long time lurking]

WTC is a problem but from where i`m sitting removing it would not be the magic cure as the damage has already been done ,the government are the only driver for wages at the bottom end , NMW will be £9.20 phr in just over 3 years time ,that`s enough of a draw on it`s own regardless of WTC

The problem we will soon have is NMW will equate to (there or there about) the same level of pay that a lot of trades are paying in vast swathes of the country,where`s the pressure going to come from for those wages to rise ,when theres already a massive oversupply tradesmen many of which are EE willing to work for ever decreasing wages

Traditionally it would have been the unions pushing for wage rises ...it`s no-longer the case

This is why the working class voted brexit ...there`s noone fighting their corner

Edited July 10, 2016 by long time lurking

[Sheeple Splinter]

Pretty much agree

the issue is that tax credits can't be stopped to eu arrivals without it seeming discrimatory and hence against the law (EU law as implemented in domestic law)

Why on earth couldn't they just make working tax-credits and housing benefit part of a contributory based system I don't know - it would not be seen as discriminatory and only those eu workers who had the skills to earn enough so as to live in this country without free money would come. After a reasonable period of contributions they would qualify for job seeks allowance and the other benefits should they subsequently lose their job etc

+1

ECJ ruling was for 'economically inactive migrants' claiming benefits for up to five years. New migrants working p/t & f/t are still able to claim all in work benefits and the 'biggy', housing benefit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-court-backs-uks-ability-to-restrict-child-benefits-for-migrants-a7081046.html

[kibuc]

destroying the UK economy by losing access to the single market is not on it

You don't have to be IN the single market to have access to it. How do you think USA, Canada or China manage to trade with EU?

[long time lurking]

Probably because they wanted an excuse to leave the EU and remove the welfare state once they had.

They have a mandate to leave the EU, destroying the UK economy by losing access to the single market is not on it. I didn't vote Tory for them to destroy the country. If, by following the leave vote, they pursue policies that violate the electoral promises that got them elected, they will have a problem.

They will also have a problem if they dont follow what the people wanted in the referendum ,they are fecked either way it`s just a case of damage limitation on their part and they will take the route that will do less damage ...IMO that will be do what leave wants,stop free movement,that`s the rhetoric coming from team blue already

[South Lorne]

Without access to the single market, the EU will block passporting to the EU, there is no question of that. We'll lose £90 billion of our exports and a huge tax take.

The repeated assertion that 'Germany will still 'want to trade with us' is ******, The UK will not be able to do business in the EU, period.

.....imports from the EU are greater then our exports to them ...no more Audis, BMs and Mercs....but..will the EU exist in two years...?....

[Guest TheBlueCat]

visa free travel is an option on the table

I think the chance of visa restrictions being placed on most countries in the EU are basically zero (and quite right too). Most of the civilised world allows visa free travel for most of the rest of the civilized world and no-one is going to want to start changing that. What will change I would expect is the arrangements for the granting of work permits, but that's a whole different thing.

[Royw6]

They will also have a problem if they dont follow what the people wanted in the referendum ,they are fecked either way it`s just a case of damage limitation on their part and they will take the route that will do less damage ...IMO that will be do what leave wants,stop free movement,that`s the rhetoric coming from team blue already

I agree with you fully, but all you will find is eu migration is replaced by unskilled migration from the eu essentially. We will leave the eu and still need car washers and other manual work so the points based system that already exists will be activated http://www.workpermit.com/uk/uk-immigration-tier-system/tier-3-unskilled-migration.htm

This will stop benefit tourism, although stats for its existence are sketchy.

Is this acceptable as the outcome of the exit vote? There must be some other red lines that exists otherwise the whole thing was a pointless waste of time.

Is a condition of leaving for the regions that the uk gov covers all previous eu expenditure too, or sets up new bodies to replace those which exist at Euro level? If I lived in Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, norther Ireland I would be calling for this.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Royw6

[Guest TheBlueCat]

Probably because they wanted an excuse to leave the EU and remove the welfare state once they had.

What a ridiculous statement. If anything, staying in the EU gives a better case for removing the welfare state as it allows the excuse of stopping non-UK citizens from claiming things. In the few parts of the social chapter that the UK has signed up for, we've mostly exceeded the minimum EU standards anyway (e.g. 25 days leave vs. a minimum requirement of 20).

[tinker]

You don't have to be IN the single market to have access to it. How do you think USA, Canada or China manage to trade with EU?

This is what I can't understand about the need to be 'in' the single market, when countries outside of Europe trade with countries within it.

[South Lorne]

This is what I can't understand about the need to be 'in' the single market, when countries outside of Europe trade with countries within it.

...it's all a game to retain a net contributor country .....they need the income....also, it's the non elected officials in the EU, who are in panic mode as they see the dominos starting to tilt ....they are the official troughers .....

[Royw6]

This is what I can't understand about the need to be 'in' the single market, when countries outside of Europe trade with countries within it.

It's a protectionist trade block. Best example for here is cars, we assemble cars for companies such as Nissan for the eu market. We get bits from wherever the car parts are made, and we put them together. As such, the tariffs are minimised and the car becomes a viable commodity. Outside of the eu, we are not of use to Nissan. However, things like whisky and other domestic goods, although taxed more, will still be viable.

There are also issues relating to the uk as a transport hub. Our economy and jobs will be hit by leaving the single market, simple as we trade substantially with the eu in a preferential position. There is a whole big world out there it's true, but we are an expensive place to make things like clothes and white goods, unless we really go for broke we could never compete with India or china effectively.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Royw6

[Sheeple Splinter]

I think the chance of visa restrictions being placed on most countries in the EU are basically zero (and quite right too). Most of the civilised world allows visa free travel for most of the rest of the civilized world and no-one is going to want to start changing that. What will change I would expect is the arrangements for the granting of work permits, but that's a whole different thing.

Indeed, administration around work and student visas will need to be overhauled. Illegal immigration is estimated to be well over 1 million people and will BoJo's ambition of an amnesty be forthcoming from the blue champion?

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/illegal-immigration

[long time lurking]

I agree with you fully, but all you will find is eu migration is replaced by unskilled migration from the eu essentially. We will leave the eu and still need car washers and other manual work so the points based system that already exists will be activated http://www.workpermit.com/uk/uk-immigration-tier-system/tier-3-unskilled-migration.htm

This will stop benefit tourism, although stats for its existence are sketchy.

Is this acceptable as the outcome of the exit vote? There must be some other red lines that exists otherwise the whole thing was a pointless waste of time.

Is a condition of leaving for the regions that the uk gov covers all previous eu expenditure too, or sets up new bodies to replace those which exist at Euro level? If I lived in Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, norther Ireland I would be calling for this.

The redline is not a line drawn it the sand if you ask me ,the problem the working class have is downward pressure on wages and not enough jobs to go around with an ever increasing number of people chasing those jobs(vicious circle when it comes to falling wage levels )

This will take years before there`s a noticeable difference ,i`m guessing here but the first signs will be upward pressure on wages especially when it comes to tradesmen` s wages until that happens i can`t see the working classes being pacified

As for handing out work permits like flyers for a new nightclub, i think you are more likely to be right than wrong (the balance of power in the UK are still pro as much cheap labor as possible) but the point is at some point that behavior will be judged via the UK ballot box not a decision made by the EU commissioners

Edited July 10, 2016 by long time lurking