The Official Brexit - Remain Thread - All New Threads Will Be Merged Into This One

[XswampyX]

It's the real world. Not the fairytale nightmare world that exists in the mind of people who think they can leave stay in the EU with no consequences.

That's better!

[CyberNat]

Micheal Gove seems to support independence! Either that or he is a raging hypocrite! Probably the latter.

“My starting point is simple. I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change.

If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time.

But our membership of the* Union prevents us being able to change huge swathes of law and stops us being able to choose who makes critical decisions which affect all our lives. Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out.

The ability to choose who governs us, and the freedom to change laws we do not like, were secured for us in the past by radicals and liberals who took power from unaccountable elites and placed it in the hands of the people.

But by leaving* we can take control. Indeed we can show the rest of Europe the way to flourish. Instead of grumbling and complaining about the things we can’t change and growing resentful and bitter, we can shape an optimistic, forward-looking and genuinely internationalist alternative.

We can show leadership. Like the Americans who declared their independence and never looked back, we can become an exemplar of what an inclusive, open and innovative democracy can achieve.

Are we really too small, too weak and too powerless to make a success of self-rule? This chance may never come again in our lifetimes, which is why I will be true to my principles and take the opportunity* to leave* and embrace a better future.”

http://wingsoverscotland.com/we-agree-with-michael-gove/

Edited February 20, 2016 by CyberNat

[geezer466]

Thanks for the video geeza466.

I watched every second.

Didn't see anyone walking out!!

I`ll join "GO" next week, at least I`ll be able to put around several thousand leaflets.

Thanks for your encouragement campervanman and scot nat..

Last time I donated to a political cause was when I sent Red Ken a Tenner many years ago to fight his mayoral campaign...... What a bloody mistake that was but I own up and am not proud of it...

I also shell be joining Grass Roots Out and donating a few quid......

If a cause can attract such unlikely bedfellows as Galloway and Farage who come from opposite ends of the political spectrum it cannot be all bad.

Never liked Galloway's politics but have always admired the way he speaks and his quick mind. Look at how he floored those Senators in Washington all those years ago. Farage is also not afraid to speak the truth and does so week after week in the Euro Parliament......

Its great to see that the majority view on this thread is Nation first and politics second. Even that view can be applied to tour resident ScotsNat.....

Edited February 20, 2016 by geezer466

[Bruce Banner]

I was wavering until now but that agreement and the fact that it's being presented as a win is highly insulting so I'm firmly in the leave camp. I've also heard that the agreement won't be going through EU parliament until after the referendum so is potentially not even worth the paper it's written on.

That is how I understand it too.

[campervanman]

Odds shortening all the time on staying in. The bookies have made up their minds. Yesterday you could still get 1/2 on staying in, today you can't get 1/3. Job done.

https://m.oddschecker.com/t/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result

Edited February 20, 2016 by campervanman

[Bruce Banner]

Odds shortening all the time on staying in. The bookies have made up their minds. Yesterday you could still get 1/2 on staying in, today you can't get 1/3. Job done.

https://m.oddschecker.com/t/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result

Thanks for the warning, we need to step-up our efforts to secure a Brexit.

[campervanman]

20 UKIP trolls on a website wont change a thing.

[Bruce Banner]

20 UKIP trolls on a website wont change a thing.

Ah, so now anyone who wants out, for whatever reason, is a UKIP troll.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Bruce Banner

[geezer466]

Odds shortening all the time on staying in. The bookies have made up their minds. Yesterday you could still get 1/2 on staying in, today you can't get 1/3. Job done.

https://m.oddschecker.com/t/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result

Bookies have never been any good at reading stuff this far out.......

Look at the Next General Election they have Labour down to win at 11/4 and UKIP at 66/1. Labour with Jezza in charge have no chance and odds of 500/1 would be nearer the mark. UKIP further out than that.....1000/1 perhaps..

As the Euref the odds are so close together as to be meaningless. In a two horse race bookies odds are not a good marker.......

Watch the opinion polls when they start to appear (although they don't have a good track record as per the last general election). Paddy Pantsdown was going to eat his hat when the true picture (despite the opinion polls) began to emerge. He never did though.

[CyberNat]

Bookies have never been any good at reading stuff this far out.......

Look at the Next General Election they have Labour down to win at 11/4 and UKIP at 66/1. Labour with Jezza in charge have no chance and odds of 500/1 would be nearer the mark. UKIP further out than that.....1000/1 perhaps..

As the Euref the odds are so close together as to be meaningless. In a two horse race bookies odds are not a good marker.......

Watch the opinion polls when they start to appear (although they don't have a good track record as per the last general election). Paddy Pantsdown was going to eat his hat when the true picture (despite the opinion polls) began to emerge. He never did though.

There have already been plenty opinion polls carried out. The majority put Remain in the lead although Leave has been making some ground recently.

[geezer466]

There have already been plenty opinion polls carried out. The majority put Remain in the lead although Leave has been making some ground recently.

There were a lot of 'undecided' who were waiting to see what earth moving deal Dave brought back from Brussels....

Those will start to declare now so the next few will be more interesting... Maybe in a week or so once the debates get going we will get a better picture.

Interesting point raised by Sarah Smith on BBC news earlier (CyberNat won't appreciate this) . The referendum may be very close in England, slightly for the Out vote, but the votes from Scotland which is a healthy 60/40 to stay in may be enough to keep the UK in the EU!

You may get your referendum (or the English will) after all and for reasons you can not yet begin to fathom.........

[CyberNat]

There were a lot of 'undecided' who were waiting to see what earth moving deal Dave brought back from Brussels....

Those will start to declare now so the next few will be more interesting... Maybe in a week or so once the debates get going we will get a better picture.

Interesting point raised by Sarah Smith on BBC news earlier (CyberNat won't appreciate this) . The referendum may be very close in England, slightly for the Out vote, but the votes from Scotland which is a healthy 60/40 to stay in may be enough to keep the UK in the EU!

You may get your referendum (or the English will) after all and for reasons you can not yet begin to fathom.........

I read somewhere that if England voted 53% to leave (or stay), it wouldn't matter which way any other country in the UK votes. Hows that for democracy!

The vote in England would have to be very very close for the votes from the rest of the UK to matter.

Stay or leave it makes no real odds to me. If England votes to leave and Scotland votes to stay, Scottish referendum time! If England votes to stay then I get to come here and rub it in, and we will still get another independence referendum, just a little bit further down the line.

It's all good in the hood!

[billybong]

The full text of the DRAFT agreement with the eu - released a couple of weeks ago.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/david-camerons-draft-eu-deal-full-text/

Then there's Dave's statement today

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-summit-full-text-david-camerons-statement-eu-reform-deal-1544984http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-summit-full-text-david-camerons-statement-eu-reform-deal-1544984

The final agreement

http://docs.dpaq.de/10395-0216-euco-conclusions.pdf

Today, the European Council agreed that the following set of arrangements, which are fully compatible with the Treaties and will become effective on the date the Government of the United Kingdom informs the Secretary - General of the Council that the United Kingdom has decided to remain a member of the European Union, constitute an appropriate response to the concerns of the United Kingdom

My bold.

If it's all "fully compatible with the Treaties" then it's difficult to know exactly what change has been "negotiated" - change that wasn't possible years ago under the Treaties if they'd wanted to.

If it's all "fully compatible with the Treaties" then why can't it all be implemented immediately and right now.

It has the definite feel of a complete con surrounding it.

Still it must have been worth it what with all the lavish jollies and multi course dining.

Edited February 21, 2016 by billybong

[campervanman]

The biggest problem the out campaign has is that they are/ will be unable to say with any degree of certainty what out will result in. Talking of regaining sovereignty, renogotiating trade deals and keeping jobs in the UK because companies will not relocate is just talk. It means nothing because nobody really knows and how many people are prepared to vote for the unknown? Ok people with not a lot to lose maybe but what % of the UK population is that?

[campervanman]

With respect that is meaningless unless you know 40 million people.

[SpectrumFX]

The biggest problem the out campaign has is that they are/ will be unable to say with any degree of certainty what out will result in. Talking of regaining sovereignty, renogotiating trade deals and keeping jobs in the UK because companies will not relocate is just talk. It means nothing because nobody really knows and how many people are prepared to vote for the unknown? Ok people with not a lot to lose maybe but what % of the UK population is that?

It will result in us not paying £55 million a day gross (£33m net) to an organisation that has had its accounts qualified (their auditors have refused to sign then off as true) for 20 years.

I bet you're still putting money into Arthur Fowlers allotment fund

[mentalfloss]

The biggest problem the out campaign has is that they are/ will be unable to say with any degree of certainty what out will result in. Talking of regaining sovereignty, renogotiating trade deals and keeping jobs in the UK because companies will not relocate is just talk. It means nothing because nobody really knows and how many people are prepared to vote for the unknown? Ok people with not a lot to lose maybe but what % of the UK population is that?

That's it? That's the argument? The U.K existed before the union project. Other countries happily exist without being in the project. If the we leave the sky will not fall in. People will trade with us. Some things will be worse, some things may be better. Voting through inertia and fear of the unknown is pretty close to cowardice in my view.

A country which cannot control its own borders is not a country. For that reason alone with the EU being expansionary we need to be out of it. It's not about benefits as idiot Cameron would have us believe. It's about numbers and culture.

[hughjass]

I am for staying in, as soon as the votes finished the stock market and pound would drop 30%. wed have an emergency budget that would bring in Nhs charges stop the winter fuel payment and bring back capital controls. The Qe chickens would come home to roost and wed be like a cold version of Greece

[campervanman]

Of course the UK existed before the EU but that was 43 years ago. The world is not the same place as it was 43 years ago and even if it were, I doubt if most people on here have any understanding or recollection of what life outside the EU was like 43 years ago. Which other countries exist outside the EU that the UK could reasonably be compared to in terms of population, economy and resources?

I would agree with you that it isn't about benefits,that was just a sideshow to neutralise the argument from those who claim that EU citizens were "coming to the UK to live off benefits". Ultimately it will come down to the economy and to whether people feel they will be better off or worse off. My feeling is that should the vote look like being close then you will start to see a run on Sterling and at that point the consequences of leaving will become clearer to those who remain undecided. Add in the voices of industry, most of whom will be warning of the consequences to employment from leaving and I strongly believe that the majority of those currently undecided will vote to stay. I cannot see anything that the out campaign could come up with that would change that.

[campervanman]

I am for staying in, as soon as the votes finished the stock market and pound would drop 30%. wed have an emergency budget that would bring in Nhs charges stop the winter fuel payment and bring back capital controls. The Qe chickens would come home to roost and wed be like a cold version of Greece

Judging by the recent falls in Sterling you probably have that the wrong way around.

Edited February 21, 2016 by campervanman

[CyberNat]

The biggest problem the out campaign has is that they are/ will be unable to say with any degree of certainty what out will result in. Talking of regaining sovereignty, renogotiating trade deals and keeping jobs in the UK because companies will not relocate is just talk. It means nothing because nobody really knows and how many people are prepared to vote for the unknown? Ok people with not a lot to lose maybe but what % of the UK population is that?

The biggest problem the out campaign has is that they are/ will be unable to say with any degree of certainty what out will result in. Talking of regaining sovereignty, renogotiating trade deals and keeping jobs in the UK because companies will not relocate is just talk. It means nothing because nobody really knows and how many people are prepared to vote for the unknown? Ok people with not a lot to lose maybe but what % of the UK population is that?

This is what happened in Scotland. Too many people scared of change.

[CyberNat]

95% of the people I know plan to vote out. That's a good enough metric for me ATM.

100% of people I knew wanted Scottish independence...

[CyberNat]

That's it? That's the argument? The U.K existed before the union project. Other countries happily exist without being in the project. If the we leave the sky will not fall in. People will trade with us. Some things will be worse, some things may be better. Voting through inertia and fear of the unknown is pretty close to cowardice in my view.

A country which cannot control its own borders is not a country. For that reason alone with the EU being expansionary we need to be out of it. It's not about benefits as idiot Cameron would have us believe. It's about numbers and culture.

You must support Scottish Independence then.

[southmartin]

The biggest problem the out campaign has is that they are/ will be unable to say with any degree of certainty what out will result in. Talking of regaining sovereignty, renogotiating trade deals and keeping jobs in the UK because companies will not relocate is just talk. It means nothing because nobody really knows and how many people are prepared to vote for the unknown? Ok people with not a lot to lose maybe but what % of the UK population is that?

(my bold)

But surely can't you see, that The biggest problem with the IN campaign has is that they are/ will be unable to say with any degree of certainly was IN will result in

Can you honesty say that if we vote to stay IN the following will be the same

1. Immigration (no EU limits, so 1m or 20m coming here in the next 5 years?) - tell me how many?
2. Economy. Being shackled to trading with the EU and unable to make our own Free Trade Agreements with the rest of the world
3. Economy (2) Being forced to eventually join the Euro (the 'agreement' not to have to do this can be overturned by the EU Parliament, and hence is not worth the paper it's written on)
4. Political stability? The EU is a total basket case, Political union between the richer, north states, and the southern ones was always going to result in disaster
5. Demand for housing - do we need 30,000 houses per year, or 2 million? Surely on a HPC forum we should be supporting measures that will reduce the demand and thus stabilise prices

The facts is, that there are just as many (if not more) risks to staying in the EU. The EU we know at the moment will not be the EU in 10 years time. We will never stop their ingrained march to greater fiscal and political integration.

And, as the late Tony Benn said. If you are unable to vote to remove your rulers, you are a slave.

You are saying we should stay slaves because the cells are nicely decorated. You sir, are a coward, and I suspect your prolific posting is due to you being paid for (either directly or indirectly) by an EU institution.

Luckily though, it seems that you're pretty much the only person who wants to stay in, and you seem to be aiming most of your posts at slagging off the various OUT campaigns. Not sure why you think having multiple OUT groups is a bad thing? Seems to me that GO are concentrating on the immigration arguments, and Vote.Leave on the Economic. Frankly there are so many reasons to leave that I think 5 groups couldn't cover it all!

Play the ball, not the man.

Now reply with some numbers, and let's get back to facts... come on, we're all waiting

[Frank Hovis]

95% of the people I know plan to vote out. That's a good enough metric for me ATM.

Yes, but your circle would mostly consist of intelligent successful people who understand the arguments.

There is a big chunk out there who do not understand any of it and a lot of those vote (small c) conservatively through fear of change. Their ill-informed votes count no less than that of the people who do understand the arguments.

The referendum will be won on pure rhetoric; Boris Johnson (a very good speaker whatever you may think of him) would be a very useful cheerleader for either side.