knock out johnny Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Thought experiment; when is it ok to restrain someone? Forget the law...what are the moral boundaries? P When it is reasonable to do so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 There are people who won't be stopped by anything short of physical means. The last thing you want children to learn is that whatever is said if they dig their heels in there's nothing that can be done to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 ? When you spilled my pint? The law usually requores a more specific test of reasonableness, and I think most of us have our own moral boundaries? P I'm not talking about the law - just as you asked - although you are quite right, that there is an element of what is reasonable in english law I would say if I delibrately spilled your pint and continued doing so, forcible physical restraint would be reasonable As I said - when it is reasonable to do so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankief Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 So let's chuck more resources at it. More teaching assistants, disruptive class management training, restraint management courses etc. Meanwhile the well behaved kids, let's consider them - who want to learn, but have their school days wasted as we pander to the badly behaved elements who know that they will get away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19 year mortgage 8itch Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Everything is fine in theory - but having 13 year olds effing and blinding at you day in day out for years is going to take its toll on even the most A grade well trained most amazing teacher on the planet ever. And considering that - I don't think his one of actions were even remotely worth anything close to a court case. How many times do you think he had something thrown at him ? A kid barge into him on purpose - or most probably much much worse ? Now 2 wrongs don't make a right - but I live in the real World. And the only way to deal with a little 13 year old scumbag is to give them a bit of their own medicine now and again. Hence why anyone who works in teaching - or has been at school - and we all have - will tell you - the most respected teachers are the ones the kids are slightly scared of. "The only way"?Written with the dogmatic panache of an Daesh insurgent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 He gets his little finger cut off. EDIT: If you ever had a dog, you would know that you don't teach a dog by beating it. Perhaps before being set free in the classroom, teachers should prove they can teach and discipline dogs without resorting to capital punishment. EDIT2: There was an interesting TV series a while back that involved warring couples. The wife was forever arguing with the husband. Basically, they taught the wife how to train a dog and then to apply what they learned to their husband. Talking, not shouting. Rewarding. etc. My brother pointed out it wasn't in fact teaching the wife how to train their husband, but rather teaching the wife how to behave in a civil manner and then the husband responded in kind. The teacher held him against a wall. If that's a beating or capital punishment you must have led a rather sheltered existence !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 This. Not saying it's an easy job but that's the job today. If you get to the point where you lose your temper, you've lost. Kid wants to walk out? Let them, inform those that need to know and fill out the paperwork. Kid wants to dance on the table? Use what you know about them to coax them off...it's why most classrooms have at least one TA now, or more for 'problem' kids. 'Classroom Management' is part of the job. Sympathetically, teachers are under so much pressure to deliver 'results' these days they feel like they don't have time for the classroom management stuff and resort to shortcuts. P Why do you think classroom "management" and extra assistants are required today and not previously ? Any possibility we have a link here..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 "The only way"? Written with the dogmatic panache of an Daesh insurgent. Explain the 'other way' then. And i notice you don't actually respond to any of my points. Kids respect teachers they are a little scared off more than others. I am sure you were also a child once - so you will already know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hail the Tripod Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 My genuine opinion is that parents often don't take the time to do 'real' parenting with kids these days. Threat of punishment was one factor that kept me in check when I was younger, but I can just as easily see cases where kids were punished physically so often they stopped giving a sh1t...and then you still have a dangerous, uncontrollable child. When my parents threatened something...grounding, restriction of privileges, lack of treats etc. they stuck to it. Even if it meant letting me have a paddy for 5 minutes, 10 minutes, an hour...whatever. Consistently letting me know I wasn't going to gey my way. Since you asked, that's what I think is missing...parents being patient and consistent. Instead of giving in and 'outsourcing' child management to the teachers. That's why running a modern classroom is so much more resource-intensive. P You went to boarding school, the ultimate outsourcing solution. Those kids must have been absolutely feral in class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Explain the 'other way' then. This conversational style of yours is pretty tedious sometimes. You adopt a position and then demand that others try to talk you out of it. Other people are quite happy for you to stick to your existing opinions if that's what you want to do. You certainly don't sound like somebody who's willing to listen and be convinced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 My genuine opinion is that parents often don't take the time to do 'real' parenting with kids these days. Threat of punishment was one factor that kept me in check when I was younger, but I can just as easily see cases where kids were punished physically so often they stopped giving a sh1t...and then you still have a dangerous, uncontrollable child. When my parents threatened something...grounding, restriction of privileges, lack of treats etc. they stuck to it. Even if it meant letting me have a paddy for 5 minutes, 10 minutes, an hour...whatever. Consistently letting me know I wasn't going to gey my way. Since you asked, that's what I think is missing...parents being patient and consistent. Instead of giving in and 'outsourcing' child management to the teachers. That's why running a modern classroom is so much more resource-intensive. P Would agree but I also think teachers doing exactly the same is of course having a similar impact. Remember - they spend about as much time with their teachers as they do with their parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNACR Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 I think there's times when rules and regulations need overlooking because someone deserves a slap. I have been arrested for assault twice broadly following this strategy though so I appreciate it may not be perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libspero Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 My 10 cents.. It depends entirely on circumstances not revealed in the story. Some people will read the limited detail and remember an abusive teacher who just took pleasure in being sadistic/nasty. Others will remember a teacher who was generally fair and respected but knew how to stand up to trouble makers and make an example of them. Personally, if a teacher has the best interests of the kids at heart, and is good at teaching their subject, then I don't have any issue at all with the relatively tame actions taken by this teacher. On the other hand if he is just a d**k and a crap teacher I wouldn't want him teaching my kids. Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 This conversational style of yours is pretty tedious sometimes. You adopt a position and then demand that others try to talk you out of it. Other people are quite happy for you to stick to your existing opinions if that's what you want to do. You certainly don't sound like somebody who's willing to listen and be convinced.Please go back and review my conversation back and forward with 24 year 8itch.Points going back and forward with differing of opinion until their final response was I was talking like some ISIS terrorist - and not bothering to actually reply to my points. Yet my conversational 'style' has something wrong with it ? If that's your opinion up to you. But I really don't see it. I don't take a stance and 'demand' others talk me out of it. I am just interested in listening to others opinions and I am open to persuasion if someone puts over good points. I fail to see how me continuing to be pleasant to someone who has compared me to terrorists - when the opinion I am giving is clearly supported by the majority on this thread - is being anything but reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 I think there's times when rules and regulations need overlooking because someone deserves a slap. I have been arrested for assault twice broadly following this strategy though so I appreciate it may not be perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 My 10 cents.. It depends entirely on circumstances not revealed in the story. Some people will read the limited detail and remember an abusive teacher who just took pleasure in being sadistic/nasty. Others will remember a teacher who was generally fair and respected but knew how to stand up to trouble makers and make an example of them. Personally, if a teacher has the best interests of the kids at heart, and is good at teaching their subject, then I don't have any issue at all with the relatively tame actions taken by this teacher. On the other hand if he is just a d**k and a crap teacher I wouldn't want him teaching my kids. Simple. Would agree. And since none of us know anything other than what we have to go on in that story - that's all we can offer our opinions based on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hail the Tripod Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 FWIW the boarders were generally quite tame in class but off the rails outside class...whatever that means P So it doesn't take that much parental time and effort to set boundaries on behaviour, as long as those boundaries are applied fairly consistently and with effective sanction.It's farcical that it has got to the stage that simply preventing a student walking out of detention is criminal. I honestly cannot see how it would be so much better for this teacher to have let the kid walk out and pursued the bureaucratic method of excluding him from school, pushing him further along a path that leaves him woefully unable to function in society; rather than (maybe cackhandedly) trying to set a line in the sand and trying to work him back from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougless Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 I have a great deal of sympathy with this teacher, whatever his level of competence was. However there is a positive aspect to this miscarriage of justice; it will help to put more people off becoming Teachers. Most Teachers are seriously overworked and the profession is rapidly going the same way as social workers, damned if they do and damned if they don't. Hopefully the Government will wake up to what they have done to the profession but I am not holding my breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahoo Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 By your statement - you obviously think children have the power over the teacher fair enough we'll agree to differ You're clearly anti-teacher......why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahoo Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Why was he asked to stay behind? Because he's a disruptive pupil and the teacher can't do his job. 58 represents years of experience. Is this the cheapest method of getting rid of expensive staff? Poor bloody teacher....what a fluck arsed country we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahoo Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 I have a great deal of sympathy with this teacher, whatever his level of competence was. However there is a positive aspect to this miscarriage of justice; it will help to put more people off becoming Teachers. Most Teachers are seriously overworked and the profession is rapidly going the same way as social workers, damned if they do and damned if they don't. Hopefully the Government will wake up to what they have done to the profession but I am not holding my breath. Agreed....great post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 So it doesn't take that much parental time and effort to set boundaries on behaviour, as long as those boundaries are applied fairly consistently and with effective sanction. It's farcical that it has got to the stage that simply preventing a student walking out of detention is criminal. I honestly cannot see how it would be so much better for this teacher to have let the kid walk out and pursued the bureaucratic method of excluding him from school, pushing him further along a path that leaves him woefully unable to function in society; rather than (maybe cackhandedly) trying to set a line in the sand and trying to work him back from there. Detention is the school equivalent of the naughty step. For some pupils - its clearly not enough. It's well known that one of the few things these type of children do respond well to when a little older is the military. Seems strange when they appear to have a problem with authority. They do however respond and respect authority they have a bit of FEAR of. You can't treat every child the same way and expect the same result - you don't have to be a teacher or behavioural expert to know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 You're clearly anti-teacher......why? I had bad experiences with teachers who were bullies and stifled what talent I had (and I had been told by a great many other teachers in the same subject that I had a rare and genuine talent) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 I had bad experiences with teachers who were bullies and stifled what talent I had (and I had been told by a great many other teachers in the same subject that I had a rare and genuine talent) But do you not still realise the advantage many pupils could get from a teacher that was hard - but fair and not a bully ? There will be plenty of folk out there with the opposite experience from you who wish they had a hard nosed ******* of a teacher to have prevented them wasting their years at school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 If he had not stopped the running between his legs he probably would have been done eventually for allowing it. No win situation for hi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.