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German Reichs Chancellor Merkel tells Britons how to vote if they know whats good for them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36436726

You wonder who exactly Cameron & Osborne are working for.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has warned the UK that countries "at the bargaining table" negotiate better deals than those "outside the room".
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German Reichs Chancellor Merkel tells Britons how to vote if they know whats good for them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36436726

You wonder who exactly Cameron & Osborne are working for.

Pretty much the definition of an abusive relationship.

If you leave I will hurt you...I will make your existence harder than it has to be as punishment for leaving. If you stay you will be much better off, I can change...

Wouldn't it be nice if they just said "Ok you want to leave? it's going to be tough on you for a bit but as your European neighbours we respect your sovereign rights to determine your own way of life. We will help where we can, good luck"

Edited by JustAnotherProle
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Pretty much the definition of an abusive relationship.

If you leave I will hurt you...I will make your existence harder than it has to be as punishment for leaving. If you stay you will be much better off, I can change...

Wouldn't it be nice if they just said "Ok you want to leave? it's going to be tough on you for a bit but as your European neighbours we respect your sovereign rights to determine your own way of life. We will help where we can, good luck"

Completely agree.

Germany is the elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about. The "EU" is essentially code for German hegemony in Europe.

You can be damned sure if/when Germany decides to exit the Euro/EU they wont be asking UK for permission/approval

Edited by R K
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Completely agree.

Germany is the elepant in the room nobody wants to talk about. The "EU" is essentially code for German hegemony in Europe.

You can be damned sure if/when Germany decides to exit the Euro/EU they wont be asking UK for permission/approval

So with the EU you have de facto German economic hegemony but which formally recognises the rights of all the other states. Without the EU you have real hegemony of either Germany or Russia and a bunch of client states and the UK and France trying to keep the balance.

Which do you prefer?

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So with the EU you have de facto German economic hegemony but which formally recognises the rights of all the other states. Without the EU you have real hegemony of either Germany or Russia and a bunch of client states and the UK and France trying to keep the balance.

Which do you prefer?

No it doesnt. It only follows the rules it chooses

Perfectly clear in their ongoing treatment of greece, a supposedly equal sovereign member of the EU. Merkel followed exactly the same method in "negotiations" with Cameron over immigrant benefits.

germany doesnt believe creditor and debtor nations are equal. germany will never enter into full banking union or give full support to common EU debt.

I actually support many of the aims of an "EU" but not this version of it. Since germany will never change I therefore prefer to be outside of it. If there is to be another European war it will happen in any event.

Edited by R K
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No it doesnt. It only follows the rules it chooses

Perfectly clear in their ongoing treatment of greece, a supposedly equal sovereign member of the EU. Merkel followed exactly the same method in "negotiations" with Cameron over immigrant benefits.

germany doesnt believe creditor and debtor nations are equal. germany will never enter into full banking union or give full support to common EU debt.

I actually support many of the aims of an "EU" but not this version of it. Since ermany will never change I therefore prefer to be outside of it. If there is to be another European war it will happen in any event.

Why do you have such a patronising attitude to the Greeks who support EU membership (much more than we do)?

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No it doesnt. It only follows the rules it chooses

Perfectly clear in their ongoing treatment of greece, a supposedly equal sovereign member of the EU. Merkel followed exactly the same method in "negotiations" with Cameron over immigrant benefits.

germany doesnt believe creditor and debtor nations are equal. germany will never enter into full banking union or give full support to common EU debt.

I actually support many of the aims of an "EU" but not this version of it. Since germany will never change I therefore prefer to be outside of it. If there is to be another European war it will happen in any event.

I think this is your only post on this entire forum that I have ever agreed with (not that I've actually read them all).

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I remember back in 2008 Faisal Islam was the only economics reporter worth watching.The rest,especially the BBC (necessarily funded by a regressive tax on poor people because thats the only way to guarantee integrity in journalism),were awful.

Flanders and the one who preceded her were beyond parody with their reports on the housing market sounding as if they were reporting on the lifeblood of the British economy.

His economic books are very good and concisely written. His oral delivery is poor, he has a bit of a speech impediment that might give the impression he isn't the sharpest tool in the box. But don't be deceived by the presentation.

Edited by crashmonitor
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Why do you have such a patronising attitude to the Greeks who support EU membership (much more than we do)?

The Greeks have a very different recent history than the UK (military dictatorship, active foreign threats, poorly developed economy). Given their perspective, it makes sense for the EU to have wide support in Greece.

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Why do you have such a patronising attitude to the Greeks who support EU membership (much more than we do)?

? I think if you read my posts on the greek thread you will see my views since 2011 are the opposite of patronising.

Not sure why you are dissembling & distracting from germany problem though. germany is demographically screwed. In a couple of decades UK will be the dominant economy in Europe anyway. I have no idea why we permit them to run the EU now.

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I'm a migrant myself (EU), but I'm not going to let that push me towards one camp or another.

I've only watched the first 2 minutes of the video (I'll explain why in a bit) and I think Faisal Islam belongs in a fish market.

I have no sympathy for Cameron (quite the opposite, in fact), but at least Cameron was trying to rationally discuss a few issues, whereas that Islam clown just kept reading "jokes" off some cards someone had to write for him and interrupting at every chance like some chav.

Cameron was trying to explain that Europe has been through two world wars - both of which were caused by economic factors (the military things were the effects, not the cause, as anyone that has read history knows). He was trying to explain that getting nations to sit at the table and negociate treaties instead of going to war every time was a huge accomplishment and that the EU was a major factor in getting here. Meanwhile, the chav kept interrupting and trying to "Sneak" in some more stupid jokes.

Would WW3 come if Britain left the EU? I don't think so. I don't think anyone really expects that, although you can never know.

But why would you try to have a conversation regarding WW2 with a Faisal Islam, whoever the hell that is? Wiki states he's of Bengali ethnicity. He didn't have to watch millions of their own killed in a war they didn't even want to be dragged in in the first place. He didn't have to suffer 50 years of communism and the Red Army. To him WW1 and WW2 might be as real as Star Wars. I'm guessing he didn't have one grandfather executed by one side and another sent to Siberia as a PoW by the other side. So let's chip in with our chav jokes and try to put words into Cameron's mouth - like ww3 and whatever. Yay, television.

I have no sympathy for Cameron or the EU and if I had a vote, I'd have to think long and hard about it (but I can't vote, so meh; for what it's worth, I'm hoping for a brexit...kind of). That doesn't stop me from seeing that for what it is. After seeing the chav jumping in to interrupt and not let Cameron speak, my thoughts are "rubber dinghy rapids bruv" (4 lions). That guy doesn't belong on TV. His manners make him a better fit for a corner shop or the fish market. To me, it's mind boggling that some guy from Bangladesh living in the UK complains about the EU, but whatever.

That's about it.

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? I think if you read my posts on the greek thread you will see my views since 2011 are the opposite of patronising.

Not sure why you are dissembling & distracting from germany problem though. germany is demographically screwed. In a couple of decades UK will be the dominant economy in Europe anyway. I have no idea why we permit them to run the EU now.

I've read many of your posts on Greece and the main thing that comes across is your blind hatred of the Germans.

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So wrong. Over a million Indians served in the British Army in the First World War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Army_during_World_War_I

EDIT: Over 2.5 million second world war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_in_World_War_II

EDIT2: Then we have the war to split from Pakistan involving genocide...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

The Bangladesh genocide took place in 1971, 26 years after WW2.

Having volunteers in a war does not equate to having your country occupied afterwards (by the Red Army). It's not equal to 50 years of forced communism. It's not equal to having members of your family deported to Siberia.

Sitting on your butt in London and heckling the elected prime minister of a country that took in your family does not equate to being a civilized human being.

If I'd be involved in a debate, I'd wait for the other side to finish expressing their thoughts and I'd then try to tell them why I think they're wrong (if I thought they were wrong, of course). I wouldn't try to speak OVER them, interrupt and not let them finish their ideas hoping to look cool. But, like I said. Rubber dinghy rapids.

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I'm a migrant myself (EU), but I'm not going to let that push me towards one camp or another.

<snip>

His manners make him a better fit for a corner shop or the fish market. To me, it's mind boggling that some guy from Bangladesh living in the UK complains about the EU, but whatever.

That's about it.

Lovely. Faisal Islam is English, and whilst I dont give a shit where anyone is from - in this case I'll make an exception because you're not. So just what is it that makes you qualified to comment if we are going to use meaningless things like 'heritage' as a means to attack people?

I suppose you've written plenty of books on how our entire economic model is flawed and is a root cause of the inequalities we see. No?

Then f**k off.

Edited by Frugal Git
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Faisal Islam was born in Manchester, is a British citizen, went to Manchester Grammar and then Trinity College. He's as British as anyone else on this forum.

In fact I welcome insights from anyone with parents who immigrated here from the Commonwealth. They remind us of the bigger world we used to belong to before the debate became insular and just about Europe all the time.

Edited by RentingForever
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German Chancellor Angela Merkel has warned the UK that countries "at the bargaining table" negotiate better deals than those "outside the room".

So whatever the UK has got was actually "negotiated" with the eu. Nobody with UK interests in mind would ever negotiate that.

Apart from everything else the UK's GDP per Capita has been declining relatively year on year for decades - at least since entry to the "Common Market". Dave makes great play about the UK being the 5th largest economy in the world (GDP) but it's 25th in GDP per Capita terms and manufacturing is less than Zimbabwe's as a percentage of the economy. Not to mention all the debt needed to mask everything.

Of course a few have done well out of the "negotiations".

Edited by billybong
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I remember back in 2008 Faisal Islam was the only economics reporter worth watching.The rest,especially the BBC (necessarily funded by a regressive tax on poor people because thats the only way to guarantee integrity in journalism),were awful.

Flanders and the one who preceded her were beyond parody with their reports on the housing market sounding as if they were reporting on the lifeblood of the British economy.

For sure like the others he will have a good knowledge of economics and most likely a pretty good idea about what's really going on in the background. It's just possible the cue cards are even his own maybe with input from "the controller". I don't blame him for the cue cards because it would be a job keeping someone like Dave on track. Apart from the time wasting bluster and interruptions (both sides) which took the pressure off Dave and made it difficult to get exactly what he was saying it became clear that Dave would get away with what seemed to be blatantly inaccurate statements and sound bites such as on immigration and who knows on what else (the immigration ins and the outs are balanced :rolleyes: - protecting manufacturing jobs :rolleyes: ...............)

It was all waffle and bluff writ large.

Yet despite all that on the face of it FI still gave Dave a more difficult time than the likes of Paxman ever would (apparently - as one doesn't know to what extent these interviews are rehearsed) - not that it was that difficult for someone as practiced and glib as Dave.

Edited by billybong
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With Parliament, you at least have this thought that at the end of the day they at least think they are doing the best for the country.

And that would be a stupid thought to have, especially since our politics since universal suffrage has been dominated by different interest groups trying to stuff each other. Remember New Labour's aim to 'rub the right's face in diversity' among many other examples.

Edited by thecrashingisles
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She said: "We work well together with the UK particularly when we talk about new rules for the EU.

"We have to develop those together with the UK and whenever we negotiate that, you can much better have an influence on the debate when you sit at the bargaining table and you can give input to those negotiations and the result will then invariably be better rather than being outside of the room."

It's difficult to believe that any politician with UK interests would agree to some of the eu stuff in action these days - so being inside some room or other seems to make little or no difference.

Is there an equivalent of say Hansard, a record of debate, so that people can see who agreed what and what was decided and how it was put to the vote plus the result - very unlikely.

Edited by billybong
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