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wonderpup

The Grapes Of Wrath

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I intend to vote exit in the upcoming referendum but if I am to be honest my reasons for doing so are only superficially rational- in reality my decision is being driven by a desire to inflict damage on an elite that I cannot clearly define but feel to be located somewhere in the nexus of the pro EU british establishment, the EU antidemocracy and the plethora of quasi independant organisations like the IMF whose function is largely to propagate the interests of the worlds wealthy and powerful.

The dubios 'logic' of my thinking goes something like this; 'They' ( that poorly defind elite) want me to vote to stay in therefore I will do the opposite- because in doing so I will damage their interests.

What's interesting about all this is that I know it's not a rational position but it makes no difference- because the objective is not to arrive at a rational decision but to inflict maximum political damage on the PTB, almost irrespective of the consequnces for my own situation.

OK- this is just boring and irrelevant if it's just about me, but becomes less boring and irrelevant if this kind of nihilistic perspective is more widespread, because the tactics being deployed by the remain camp in the UK and the anti Trump campaigns in the US and just about anywhere else where 'populist' voting intentions threaten to disloge the current incumbant powers that be are all based on an appeal to the 'rational self interest' of the electors in question- the key word here being 'rational'.

What if the voting intentions of the exit the EU voters or the Trump for president voters ect are not a product of rationality but of something more atavistic and primitive- voting intentions that are not so much tactical but weaponized?

If this is the case then no appeal to the rational self interest of the voters in question will succeed because those voters are not acting on the basis of rational self interest but on the basis of a largely irrational desire to inflict damage on those bastions of power and privelege that they percive no longer function in the general self interest but in only in their own.

One of the aspects of the Trump campaign that seems to have caught his opponents on the hop is his apparent invulnrability to their well funded propaganda- if anything the more they attacked Trump the stronger he appeared to become- which makes no sense at all if viewed through the lens of normal political campaigns- but this was not a normal campaign, because-in my opinion- the people supporting Trump were more interested in Trump as a vehicle for their discontents than they were in his credentials for the office of President - and his value as a weapon to discomfort their 'enemies' in the establishment was not damaged by the attacks of his opponents but was in fact enhanced by those attacks- the more hysterical his opponent's propaganda became the more effecitve Trump was seen to be as a politcal weapon in a class war that has yet to be declared but is already underway.

But how is it possible for Trump- a billionaire one percenter - to have positioned himself as a champion of the little guy against a corrupt establishment? The only interpretation that makes sense to me is to regard Trump as a means rather than an end- in the last analysis I don't think that many of those voting for Trump are trying to build something, I think they are trying to tear something down- and when one is choosing a wrecking ball the qualities you look for are not elegance or subtlety but raw destructive power.

So perhaps the confusion of Trumps opponents might be clarified if they grasped the reality that his level of support is not a judgment as to his suitability for high office, it's a weapon aimed directly at everything they themselves represent in the minds of the people they claim to serve.

The danger for the remain campaign, it seems to me, is that the EU referrendum might easily morph into a similar scenario in which the great unwashed vent their rage at the perceived corruption and venality of the establishment and so vote to exit- not in spite of the urgings of the great and good to do the opposite but because of those urgings- certainly, for me- the spectacle of madame lagarde lecturing the plebs on the vital necessity to vote remain is a powerful incentive to do exactly the opposite- I just can't shake the idea that if it's good for her and the people she represents then it's probably bad for me.

At some point in the recent past the idea has somehow crystallized in my mind that the interests of the prevailing elites are not merely tangential to my own but are directly opposed to my own- should this view be widely shared then the remain campaign may in fact be inadvertantly feeding a fire they desperately want to put out by recruiting elite figures-like Legarde- to present their case.

Edited by wonderpup

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Makes sense to me. The list of people and organisations that are pushing the "remain" argument aligns very closely to public figures who appear (IMHO) to be terrible examples of human beings that are totally self-serving.

Tony Blair being the prime example of this.

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I agree. Most people will be voting for their apparent vested interest, the politicians especially. For those that don't have a vested interest Brexit will cause the most disruption.

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I think you are over analyzing the Trump bit as all i see him doing is saying what the people are thinking and what his opposition are too scared to say because they did not wan`t to be branded a racist .nutters etc etc as it may hinder their chances of election ....basically they have massively miscalculated the public's opinion

Farage has b done much the same

Living in their own bubble anyone ?

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Interesting viewpoint. If this is the case, how do you make sense of those who support Brexit, yet also appear to be part of this clique e.g. Farage, Gove, Boris, etc?

Farage is basically campaigning for his redundancy

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I'm with you on this one, with the exception of Ms Legarde. I'm afraid I find her strangely attractive and if she asked me to jump, my only question would be "how high?"

I thought it was just me but you're right.

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I thought it was just me but you're right.

Thank God I'm not the only one. Although at the same time. it drives me crazy with jealousy knowing that another human being shares my insane passion for Ms Legarde.

I once had a crush on Diane from the TV series 'V' so maybe there is some kind of connection.

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Amongst the elite I think the distinction between Remainers and Brexiters is largely based on whether they believe a national stage or a European stage will better further their interests.

Cameron, Osborne et al think of the EU as a large market with lots of low cost labour we can make use of and deploy as a weapon against our own working classes.

Corbyn thinks of the EU as a potential island of socialism in the world whereby the divide and rule of the capitalists can be curtailed by joint action.

Many others on the right like Gove, Duncan-Smith and Farage fear that Corbyn is right in the creeping socialism of Europe and want to break free into a global trading nation like a Hong Kong or Singapore.

Similarly others on the left fear the free market capitalism that is foisted on countries with little democratic say.

So that is why there seems this confusing split amongst many from seemingly the same political viewpoint and agreement between those of very different political persuasions.

It all comes down to what they think the EU represents and what it will represent. I would say the dull of mind will tend to look at the EU of today. The mavericks look at the EU of their dreams and nightmares of the future.

Your right the issue of EU membership cuts right across the right left divide just as it did on the Common Market referendum in 1975 when Tony Benn and Enoch Powell found themselves on the same platform as part of the No Campaign. If you look at some of the motions that are going to Trade Union Conferences this month you will find that there are Bremainer and Brexiter options up for debate.There are still plenty the far left who are still just as hostile to the EU as currently constituted as their predecessors in the 1970s. In fact the defining feature of the years since Britain joined the Common Market has been the decline in the power of organised labour and the rise of the political influence of the finance economy across Europe. Given this situation you do have to wonder about motives of those in the Labour party who are arguing that membership of the EU is somehow protecting workers when there is so much evidence to the contrary. Edited by stormymonday_2011

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Yes, I often dream about being wrapped in the neck wrinkles of Ms Legarde. The other night I found a platoon of Japanese who still though the war was on....

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Spec saver the both of you ^^^^^^

She is typical of that rather smartly attired 'mutton dressed as lamb' class of late middle aged ladies that France seems to produce in considerable numbers.

One wonders if her bedroom habits are as dirty as her financial ones are reputed to be.

Edited by stormymonday_2011

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Farage is basically campaigning for his redundancy

Whereas Cameron, Osbourne Hammond et all want a seat on the lucrative gravy train after Westminster in the same way Kinnock, Mandleson and Patten enriched themselves at Taxpayer expense.

Farage sniffs a job in the Government somewhere if the vote is for Brexit and the cards fall right with the choice of new leader.

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Before becoming leader, Corbyn had lots of anti EU posts on his blog. He has since removed them.

Like OP, I too am cynical that almost all the career politicians want us to stay. If staying was in our interests but against theirs, would they still be advising us to stay?

With the warnings of HPC, the Brexit campaign might have been handed an easy victory.

Do you want you and your children to have affordable housing? If yes then vote Brexit.

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Interesting viewpoint. If this is the case, how do you make sense of those who support Brexit, yet also appear to be part of this clique e.g. Farage, Gove, Boris, etc?

I think the tribal split among the elite re the EU is about two competing narratives of power. Those in favour of the EU see their future in terms of membership of an international status quo- a benign dictatorship of the great and good in which democratic legitimacy is a desireable but ultimately dispensible requirement- their core arguement seems to be that the nation state is a failed institution no longer fit for purpose in a globalized world- so what is now required is benevolent rule by transnationional institutions, institutions that inevitably cannot be bound by the democratic outcome of mere nation state elections.*

The reason that institutions like the EU and the IMF are inherently anti democratic is because demoracy is in their view an outmoded and flawed model due to it's inherently nationlistic nature- democracy and the nation state are one and the same- so if the nation state is no longer an effective institution in a globalised world the same must also hold true for Democracy.

Those members of the Elite who support the exit camp have a different view as to where their self interests lie. They do not wish to dilute their power by sharing it with an international status quo that is in reality a competitor. Power is after all a zero sum game and to the extent that entites like the EU claim the right to excercise power over certain domains they are diluiting the power of others who once held sway over those domains.

Neither side in my view has a genuine respect for the Demos they claim to serve- they differ only in their perception as to the best institutional positon from which power can be both achived and retained.

Having said that I favour the exit option because in the worst case scenario I can vote a Boris Johnson out of power, while the EU technocracy have long since rendered themselves immune from democratic accountability.

* The German finance minister in the Euro Group is said to have insisted that the outcome of a referendum in Greece regarding the terms of any agreement Greece might sign could not be allowed have any influence over the terms of that agreement, should that referendum deliver the 'wrong' outcome. Like the Irish before them the Greeks discovered that voting in the EU is respected if the outcome it delivers is the 'right' outcome- but a vote that delivers the 'wrong' outcome is deemed irrelevant.

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I think you are over analyzing the Trump bit as all i see him doing is saying what the people are thinking and what his opposition are too scared to say because they did not wan`t to be branded a racist .nutters etc etc as it may hinder their chances of election ....basically they have massively miscalculated the public's opinion

Farage has b done much the same

My point was more or less the same one you make here- Trump is not succeeding in spite of his apparent unsuitability for high office but because of it- those voting for Trump are not trying to gain access to the status quo via having 'their guy' in power, they are trying to bring that status quo down- the two are very different aspirations.

The same thing can be said of the success of Bernie Sanders in taking on Clinton- Sanders is the 'anti status quo' candidate.

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Interesting viewpoint. If this is the case, how do you make sense of those who support Brexit, yet also appear to be part of this clique e.g. Farage, Gove, Boris, etc?

Murdoch, Hamilton, Hargreaves, Banks...

They don't even care that they're trying to destroy our lives, which is possibly the worst thing about it. They just think its a funny game.

Posters like OP are their pawns. They'll be fine whatever happens, they have enough resources. The rest of us are of no consequence to them.

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Trump is succeeding because the US electorate can see that he's not part of the same old self serving politically inbred corrupt double-dealing clique arranged with the purpose of diluting and destroying their say in the running of their own country.

It's the same in the UK with the venal, wicked, treacherous and three faced LibLabCon.

Edited by billybong

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Posters like OP are their pawns. They'll be fine whatever happens, they have enough resources. The rest of us are of no consequence to them.

Not true- a pawn with a vote is still a conseqential thing- look at the current rout of the Republican elite in the US- they did not want Trump but seem to have ended up with him anyway, due to the fact that enough pawns chose to vote in his favour.

The real threat here is the transnational nodes of power like the EU which due to their independance from national electoral accountability allow power to be excercised without consequnces.

The real pawns in this case are those who seem to be happy to give up their only real power- the ability to get rid of those who govern them- in return for trinkets like cheap flights or subsidies paid for with their own money.

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Trump is succeeding because the US electorate can see that he's not part of the same old self serving politically inbred corrupt double-dealing clique arranged with the purpose of diluting and destroying their say in the running of their own country.

It's the same in the UK with the venal, wicked, treacherous and three faced LibLabCon.

No one who was not bought and paid for a long time ago gets anywhere near the levers of power.

Trump is just another side of the same ****.

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No one who was not bought and paid for a long time ago gets anywhere near the levers of power.

Trump is just another side of the same ****.

I dare say you're right but it'll not be the same bought and paid for clique that's been in for the past few decades. It'll be a fresh bought and paid for clique.

I still think the policies he's currently advocating are a fresh far less PC and social engineered direction. The question is if he wins whether they'll be reneged on in the usual way. He might very well just be a different thin end of the wedge for corporate ambitions and things like TTIP.

Edited by billybong

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