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Bloo Loo

Hillsborough...it Was All The Fault Of The Police...

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Although it is acknowledged the ground was unsafe, pen headcount not done, fans crushing on the outer gate, a general mood of violence in football at the time (hence the pens and segregation of fans) it was all the fault of the Police.

the other factors are acknowledged, but this seems like a private event management evading blame for an accident at their event.

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Shh

it's took 27 years to get this far.


Sarah Hicks was in the hall just down from a friend of mine. I probably smiled at her in a corridor.
I was sat in my hall room in Liverpool listening to the radio as it happened.

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Did you not read the "14 basic facts" that came out? There was plenty blame to go around including Sheef Wed, stadium design, Yorkshire ambulance but of course the greatest emphasis was on Duckenfield for his incompetence and lies.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/26/14-questions-the-hillsborough-jury-must-answer

Yorkshire police have been f*cking disgusting down the years. Hillsbrough/cover up, Orgreave/cover up, Saville/cover up, Yorkshire Ripper/cover up, Bradford fire (what really happened still not come out yet), Rotherham/cover up...the list goes on.

+1.

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Yorkshire police have been f*cking disgusting down the years. Hillsbrough/cover up, Orgreave/cover up, Saville/cover up, Yorkshire Ripper/cover up, Bradford fire (what really happened still not come out yet), Rotherham/cover up...the list goes on.

Can we threaten Yorkshire with expulsion?

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I am a Liverpool fan, from Liverpool, never really read into the disaster in much detail though.

Some things that have come out I never knew, like the Forest fans, 29800 of them, had access via 60 turnstiles and the Liverpool fans 24256 only via 23 turnstiles.

This happened at the same place 8 years earlier:

"A crush occurred at the Leppings Lane end of the ground during the 1981 semi-final between Tottenham Hotspur and Wolverhampton Wanderers after hundreds more spectators were permitted to enter the terrace than could safely be accommodated, resulting in 38 injuries, including broken arms, legs and ribs."

At the start of the press conference today they asked if anyone was there from The Sun to leave the room!

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This short video is the perfect, neutral summary of what went wrong and why.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/features/uk-england-36103823/36103823

In summary:

It was a dangerous stadium design (the only way out of the central fenced pens was right at the top and back) and the main entrance to the lower part of that stand was into those central pens.

The police should have delayed kick off as there were far too many still outside at three mainly because of the very slow passage allowable through the turnstiles; this slow passage prevented a crush developing in the central pens as people could go through and then filter sideways without people rushing up behind and pushing them forwards.

By requesting that the exit gates were opened, and this request being snactioned by Duckenfield just before kick off, a huge rush of people desperate to see kick-off were allowed in all together and they had nowhere to go but the already full central pens. Not knwoing what was happening at the front of these pens.

With the stadium designs of the time and the arrogant and incompetent police attitude this was always going to happen somewhere.

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Did you not read the "14 basic facts" that came out? There was plenty blame to go around including Sheff Wed, stadium design, Yorkshire ambulance but of course the greatest emphasis was on Duckenfield for his incompetence and lies.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/26/14-questions-the-hillsborough-jury-must-answer

Yorkshire police have been f*cking disgusting down the years. Hillsbrough/cover up, Orgreave/cover up, Saville/cover up, Yorkshire Ripper/cover up, Bradford fire (what really happened still not come out yet), Rotherham/cover up...the list goes on.

I did, and I acknowledged some of them in the post, however, I was wondering who decided at the BBC to place Police at the top.

I have no doubt that that Force has behaved despicably in a number of cases. If the guys had told the truth at the time, then maybe this farce of a witch-hunt would have been put to bed early on, the private management of the unsafe stadium taking their rightful negligence through the courts.

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Very sad looking at the old photos of the youger ones thta died.

Even sadder looking at their parents.

When I was a kid, my babysitter was murdered in Thailland.

All the shit of having a kid die, extra so as it was murder in a very far away place.

Her mum sort of shrivelled up and shrunk. She ages about 30 years in 2.

I see the same sort of sad look on the mums holding their kids photos.

Very sad.

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This short video is the perfect, neutral summary of what went wrong and why.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/features/uk-england-36103823/36103823

In summary:

It was a dangerous stadium design (the only way out of the central fenced pens was right at the top and back) and the main entrance to the lower part of that stand was into those central pens.

The police should have delayed kick off as there were far too many still outside at three mainly because of the very slow passage allowable through the turnstiles; this slow passage prevented a crush developing in the central pens as people could go through and then filter sideways without people rushing up behind and pushing them forwards.

By requesting that the exit gates were opened, and this request being snactioned by Duckenfield just before kick off, a huge rush of people desperate to see kick-off were allowed in all together and they had nowhere to go but the already full central pens. Not knwoing what was happening at the front of these pens.

With the stadium designs of the time and the arrogant and incompetent police attitude this was always going to happen somewhere.

This one simple act would have probably stopped the disaster from even happening, the crush outside would have been averted. However I note that the FA have escaped sanction in all of this and I wonder how much pressure they placed on the kick off happening on time even thought the match wasn't broadcast.

Once the disaster unfolded the senior police officers failed to act, Herries Road should have been closed to all traffic but ambulances the NGH is only up the road and possible lives could have been saved. Hard to know if the death count really would have been reduced, but the fact that the emergency response was totally inadequate can't be ignored.

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Did you not read the "14 basic facts" that came out? There was plenty blame to go around including Sheff Wed, stadium design, Yorkshire ambulance but of course the greatest emphasis was on Duckenfield for his incompetence and lies.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/26/14-questions-the-hillsborough-jury-must-answer

Yorkshire police have been f*cking disgusting down the years. Hillsbrough/cover up, Orgreave/cover up, Saville/cover up, Yorkshire Ripper/cover up, Bradford fire (what really happened still not come out yet), Rotherham/cover up...the list goes on.

Post of the day, easy

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Any mention of Boris? Didn't he offend the whole of Liverpool with some newspaper column describing them in derogatory terms?

As I'm sure you know that was in regard of a later hostage taking ?Ken Begley and not about Hillsborough.

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I still think its amazing how the fans again get away with having anything to do with this.

Yes the main causes of this disaster were elsewhere. No doubt about that. And the behavior of the authorities after the event have been shocking. Again - no doubt about that.

And yes people piling into terracing in dangerous situations was not exactly an unusual thing at the time.

And yes if most other football fans were there and a gate was suddenly opened or an opportunity to climb over a wall occurred they may well have done the same as the fans did that day.

However to say that the excess numbers of fans at the game that day and their actions had nothing to do with the people at the front getting crushed is mental IMO.

This thing has gone on for so long and its been made clear that the authorities have ******ed lots of people over and lied about so much - that no jury in the land is going to say 'YES' to the question of whether or not the fans had any impact on what happened. Just not worth the hassle.

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I still think its amazing how the fans again get away with having anything to do with this.

Yes the main causes of this disaster were elsewhere. No doubt about that. And the behavior of the authorities after the event have been shocking. Again - no doubt about that.

And yes people piling into terracing in dangerous situations was not exactly an unusual thing at the time.

And yes if most other football fans were there and a gate was suddenly opened or an opportunity to climb over a wall occurred they may well have done the same as the fans did that day.

However to say that the excess numbers of fans at the game that day and their actions had nothing to do with the people at the front getting crushed is mental IMO.

This thing has gone on for so long and its been made clear that the authorities have ******ed lots of people over and lied about so much - that no jury in the land is going to say 'YES' to the question of whether or not the fans had any impact on what happened. Just not worth the hassle.

We've discussed it on here before. It's like a lot of current revisionism, judging events of the time by the standards of today. No doubt our opinion on the matter is now also been rendered "unacceptable", empirically wrong.

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We've discussed it on here before. It's like a lot of current revisionism, judging events of the time by the standards of today. No doubt our opinion on the matter is now also been rendered "unacceptable", empirically wrong.

I gather that crushing exit gates was a tactic used by Liverpool fans in particular to crash matches...there was an incident in the late 70s at Southend I heard....Fans were infested with animals at the time..hence the need for pens...Today, the social justice warriors would have had the FA over a barrel on this one and stabbings and pitch invasions would be a regular feature.

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We've discussed it on here before. It's like a lot of current revisionism, judging events of the time by the standards of today. No doubt our opinion on the matter is now also been rendered "unacceptable", empirically wrong.

Yep I reckon so. I read another football forum - and its amazing some of the comments on there today regarding this. There is the constant disgust around how many of the newspapers reported the events of the day - yet when people come on and question the 'Fans did nothing wrong' narrative - what do these same people do ? Immediately point them towards various newspaper articles from journalists telling us all the real 'facts' of the events :wacko:

They just don't see the irony with that.

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I gather that crushing exit gates was a tactic used by Liverpool fans in particular to crash matches...there was an incident in the late 70s at Southend I heard....Fans were infested with animals at the time..hence the need for pens...Today, the social justice warriors would have had the FA over a barrel on this one and stabbings and pitch invasions would be a regular feature.

Yep - most people have heard of this. Now either its true and if so they clearly had a big impact on what happened at Hillsborough - or its all completely made up and just rumours to besmirch Liverpool fans more. Difficult to know but having seen their behaviour at other matches - I would have to go for option 1.

On a similar note - we were down for the Hearts vs LIverpool Europa game a few years back. One of our group got so wasted they were refused entry into the Hearts end. They ended up going around to the other end and getting sold a fake ticket from a Liverpool fan. He was told these are usually available.

So you have LIverpool fans today [unless its changed in the past few years] complaining about what happened at Hillsborough - yep happily selling fake tickets that leads to more people in the Kop for home games than there are supposed to be - to make a bit of cash.

Doesn't do them any favours.

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I gather that crushing exit gates was a tactic used by Liverpool fans in particular to crash matches...there was an incident in the late 70s at Southend I heard....Fans were infested with animals at the time..hence the need for pens...Today, the social justice warriors would have had the FA over a barrel on this one and stabbings and pitch invasions would be a regular feature.

I only recently found out that I was labouring under a misunderstanding regarding this matter for a long time - that if any attempt was made to even partially blame "the fans" then that was taken in some quarters as an attempt to lay the blame on the fans who died. Now this is such a ludicrous suggestion that I never even imagined it could be the case, yet apparently it was.

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Yep - most people have heard of this. Now either its true and if so they clearly had a big impact on what happened at Hillsborough - or its all completely made up and just rumours to besmirch Liverpool fans more. Difficult to know but having seen their behaviour at other matches - I would have to go for option 1.

On a similar note - we were down for the Hearts vs LIverpool Europa game a few years back. One of our group got so wasted they were refused entry into the Hearts end. They ended up going around to the other end and getting sold a fake ticket from a Liverpool fan. He was told these are usually available.

So you have LIverpool fans today [unless its changed in the past few years] complaining about what happened at Hillsborough - yep happily selling fake tickets that leads to more people in the Kop for home games than there are supposed to be - to make a bit of cash.

Doesn't do them any favours.

I'm sure that it's all true. Some football fans behave abominably.

That is why clubs have to pay big fees for policing, provide lots of stewards, and meet health and safety design requirements for football grounds.

Any objective assessment of the design of the central pens at Hillsborough, the main entry way flowing into them, the exits being at the back and tops, the high perimeter fencing would conculude that this is unsafe in the event of a rapid inflow of people who do not know the ground.

And a police commander who was responsible for safety at the ground should have known this and known that to open the exit gates to allow this rapid inflow was asking for trouble.

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Remembering what a football crowd was like in those days what amazes me is that there were not more disasters.

We've all heard the expression "an accident waiting to happen". This was the very definition of that. Just like the scientists could withdraw the control rods. Just like the ship could sail with the doors open. It was a shit time of clapped-out infrastructure.

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I only recently found out that I was labouring under a misunderstanding regarding this matter for a long time - that if any attempt was made to even partially blame "the fans" then that was taken in some quarters as an attempt to lay the blame on the fans who died. Now this is such a ludicrous suggestion that I never even imagined it could be the case, yet apparently it was.

See: Muslim atrocities

White Males

Patriarchy

Rape Culture

Immigration at Calais

anything where lefties apply standards to all, whether deserved or not...ties politicians in knots.

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People seem to have forgotten, or are not aware, of the enormous polarisation in the UK at the time between 'the North' and the Home Counties South East.

There was a general contempt, which was very evident in the media and very much driven by the Conservative government of the time, against anywhere outside of the Home Counties. The North of England, Wales and Scotland were basically left to economic demise: arguably government policies had economically crippled large parts of the UK and the people who lived in such areas were basically despised by many from Tory 'loadsamoney' MPs, to Sun journalists to Thames Valley workers.

It was a nasty time and we must not forget that this happened.

Liverpool came in for special attention because of the militant Labour Council in the 80s - it was seen as an enemy. Even the BBC 'entertained' the nation with a long-running sit-com about the Bosworths - a Liverpool family of benefit scroungers and dodgy dealers.

Harry Endfield had his Liverpool brothers and it is interesting to see how those characters compared to his Loadasmoney barrow boy from London character - the latter was perceived as someone to actually aspire to, the former were just a dodgy bunch of Liverpudlians were they not? Of course, there was also the moving, awful, depressing portrayal of Liverpudlian life in 'Boys From The Black Stuff'. The BBC also made another series about Liverpudlians at the time but I forget the name of it.

Liverpool football fans are not entirely blamless - they had got themselves a reptutation for soccer match violence around that time but was it any more or any worse than that of other football fans. It was a time when football match violence was a frequent occurence across the UK and Europe.

I think the sad, tragic reality is that incompetence aligned with this anti-Liverpudlian, anti-'North', mentality was like an illness in the UK at the time. The result - vast numbers of people died and their families have been in turmoil ever since.

I hope that, in some small way, they can get comfort from all of this now. I suspect now. They have to live with it.

I feel for the one man who had no family. Having no family myself I do worry about things like this. No one should die alone.

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Guest eight

I hope that, in some small way, they can get comfort from all of this now. I suspect now. They have to live with it.

My fear for them is that this victory brings them no resolution whatsover. Nobody was brought back. When they returned to their homes last night the dead were still dead, not sitting there waiting for them.

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My fear for them is that this victory brings them no resolution whatsover. Nobody was brought back. When they returned to their homes last night the dead were still dead, not sitting there waiting for them.

I meant - suspect not.

I doubt they will get peace. No one ever does. People just live with these things.

I suspect there will now be a desire for criminal prosecutions of the people involved. No idea if any of those deemed responsible are still alive or not.

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