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daviduk

Just Feeling So Fed Up With It All Now.....

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Little bit of a rant....but it's all getting to me now. The sickening housing & BTL market.

1) I never check house / flat prices. Only ones to rent due to prices being so detached from my reality it makes me feel nauseous. This evening I thought I'd have a look at some though, to see if any of the trumpeted BTL offloading has affected prices. This is in the area I grew up and would like to live (partly so my young daughter can grow up there too). It's not central London. Its miles out towards Uxbridge UB8. Not a wonderful place but it's not too bad in the grand scheme of things.

To cut to the chase - it's pretty much £400,000+ for a tiny 2 bed maisonette with no parking. I'm speechless. It's like the £££ figures on rightmove / zoopla are just made up & put on there as some kind of sick joke.

2) Earlier today I got talking to a new friend of mine. She tells me she's just bought a BTL flat. Had to buy it in a rush to get in before the 3% deadline. She goes on to tell me property is the only way to make money.....that her sister has 2 properties, sisters boyfriend has 3 properties, his mum has 6 and her uncle has 9. I listen and am genuinely astonished. She says she's "made" £30,000 in the two months or so since buying it because the guy next door to her BTL says that's what they are selling for now. I'm guessing he means advertised for. She goes on to tell me in a few years with crossrail it will be worth at least 2x as much as she paid, and at that point she will withdraw the equity and buy some more.

3) Today I got called to a job. A landlord has just bought three properties all next to each other. Installed some critical wiring himself to save costs but used wrong spec cable (cheap) then made a complete hash of connecting everything and tenants are screaming. He talks of them like they are scum. Ignores them completely and barges past when they ask him perfectly reasonable questions about why basic things don't work in their £1450 pcm house.

I digress but I just can't understand how this kind of mass BTL house buying is allowed. How these parasitic BTL people aren't exterminated for the good term longevity of the country. How does the government not realise the market has become so distorted. Are they completely blind to the aspirations of hard working people who want to work hard, buy a small house, have a financially secure family and existance - but weren't lucky enough to be gifted £50,000+ as a deposit years ago?

I just feel sick to the back teeth with it all now.

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"This is in the area I grew up and would like to live (partly so my young daughter can grow up there too)"

I lived in Richmond when my mum and Dad ran pubs (in fact next door to David Attenborough), I would like to live there but can't afford it, I also lived in Putney but again I can't afford it. Terrible

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Little bit of a rant....but it's all getting to me now. The sickening housing & BTL market.

1) I never check house / flat prices. Only ones to rent due to prices being so detached from my reality it makes me feel nauseous. This evening I thought I'd have a look at some though, to see if any of the trumpeted BTL offloading has affected prices. This is in the area I grew up and would like to live (partly so my young daughter can grow up there too). It's not central London. Its miles out towards Uxbridge UB8. Not a wonderful place but it's not too bad in the grand scheme of things.

To cut to the chase - it's pretty much £400,000+ for a tiny 2 bed maisonette with no parking. I'm speechless. It's like the £££ figures on rightmove / zoopla are just made up & put on there as some kind of sick joke.

2) Earlier today I got talking to a new friend of mine. She tells me she's just bought a BTL flat. Had to buy it in a rush to get in before the 3% deadline. She goes on to tell me property is the only way to make money.....that her sister has 2 properties, sisters boyfriend has 3 properties, his mum has 6 and her uncle has 9. I listen and am genuinely astonished. She says she's "made" £30,000 in the two months or so since buying it because the guy next door to her BTL says that's what they are selling for now. I'm guessing he means advertised for. She goes on to tell me in a few years with crossrail it will be worth at least 2x as much as she paid, and at that point she will withdraw the equity and buy some more.

3) Today I got called to a job. A landlord has just bought three properties all next to each other. Installed some critical wiring himself to save costs but used wrong spec cable (cheap) then made a complete hash of connecting everything and tenants are screaming. He talks of them like they are scum. Ignores them completely and barges past when they ask him perfectly reasonable questions about why basic things don't work in their £1450 pcm house.

I digress but I just can't understand how this kind of mass BTL house buying is allowed. How these parasitic BTL people aren't exterminated for the good term longevity of the country. How does the government not realise the market has become so distorted. Are they completely blind to the aspirations of hard working people who want to work hard, buy a small house, have a financially secure family and existance - but weren't lucky enough to be gifted £50,000+ as a deposit years ago?

I just feel sick to the back teeth with it all now.

You are sane.

They are not.

Patience, Grasshopper.

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You are sane.

They are not.

Patience, Grasshopper.

+1

Exactly.

"If something cannot go on forever, it will stop."

It's absolutely horrendous, but it is what it is. In the UK the mug punter has looked at the financial crisis and decided that they only viable investment is BTL. It won't last because it can't.

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+1

Exactly.

"If something cannot go on forever, it will stop."

It's absolutely horrendous, but it is what it is. In the UK the mug punter has looked at the financial crisis and decided that they only viable investment is BTL. It won't last because it can't.

But when? Some have been waiting since 2005 when things looked very bubbly. Would have to fall 70% in London just to get back to those over inflated prices. Its been building for 12+ years.

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But when? Some have been waiting since 2005 when things looked very bubbly. Would have to fall 70% in London just to get back to those over inflated prices. Its been building for 12+ years.

The other day while checking Sw15 I found a flat in Putney, admittedly far more spacious than the average, on sale for over £950K.

Last sale was listed as in 1997 - £155k.

Even by current standards I found it extraordinary.

BTW I was only really checking to see how many of the vastly overpriced newbuild flats - of which there are a lot in Putney - had been reduced.

Quite a few, but not enough.

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We're renting near Putney, in 5 years our rent has thankfully only increased £50 but the "value" of flats in my block have almost doubled in the same time.

I'm pretty much at breaking point too now, missus unfortunately doesn't want to move out of London yet as enjoys job so I'm saving the best I can to position us to buy in a couple years or so, if no recessionary event occurs (which it should by then as China and many other factors teasing us, 10 year recession cycle etc) then I'll literally be dragging her north to areas that have seen much smaller increases since 2009. I'd rather stay down here but can't justify buying like many friends currently are unless prices revert to 2006 levels at least. Aiming for 250-280k max for a 2 bed in a nice area, currently priced around 450k. If that doesn't happen by 2018/19 then I'm out of this wretched city.

Flats bought in our block in past couple years have all been BTL, done up and rented out within a very short space of time. Look at this for some reassurance :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/buy-to-let/12087337/Mapped-how-buy-to-let-will-lose-money-in-91pc-of-regions-by-2021.html

Edited by Barnsey

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Sold my place 2 years back, not trying to time it, just trying to move up to a bigger place, lost a few (outbid by BTLer twice, one place still empty after 3 months), still looking to buy but instead of being able to afford a nice 3 or 4 bed detached, this little mini bubble over the last 2 years, means we are back to being able to afford a 3 bed terrace or keep renting. Thanks George (you *****)

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She goes on to tell me property is the only way to make money

Yesterday Mark Carney said some interesting things very similar to this. He acknowledged they had created 'bubble' conditions, borrowing the word of the questioner. He justified it within the context of the 2008 crisis and subsequent need for GDP growth. He previously described BTL as an experiment.

It shows the Bank knows the current economic structure of the UK is inherently incapable of delivering growth. Since financial 'innovation' predictably failed, property was the last card they had to play. Now that is creating a systemic crisis.

Your friend may not realise her views are partly shared by Carney, or what the implications of that are. But at least he understands it's an 'experiment' and was always doomed to fail. The housing crisis is a short-term problem - the medium-term problem of economic structure means you probably won't be able to provide an experience similar to your own even if house prices are allowed to correct. It could be worth looking at what was valuable that you'd like to pass on, and where else you could find those qualities.

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I think for me it's the "target" to aim for. If I had a house with a reasonable mortgage I would focus my efforts - probably work harder - and work out a plan get the thing paid off. As it is there's no end in sight. Its just work & earn enough to pay the rent & bills - a bit more to save - rinse and repeat. There's no plan. No security. No pension. Nothing to aim for. It has become irrelevant how much I earn (as long as I earn enough to cover costs) because houses are so out of reach - and having ever increasing savings / deposit is bringing me nothing except a miserly interest rate and denying me access to any state help if I was unable to work at some point.

I am finding myself asking the question "what's the point" more and more each day.

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Ideally I'd like to go the way of those that have amassed enough savings to cover the rent and provide a liveable income. But I'm probably 10% of the way there - and it's taken me 10 years of hard work & being sensible to get this far.

I guess if I hadn't bought that one iPad mini 3 years ago I would be nestling in a £750,000 house right now.

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It's tough, my goal was to get a house in my 30's and now that I'm here with what would have been a reasonable FTB deposit I discover I have very few options in Southern England. Have faith in your rationality, it seems the media is even starting to come round to how mad things are, BTL changes haven't really came in yet etc. I'm sure this was similar in the run up to the last recession although I'm losing perspective at the moment as friends have recently jumped in as FTB at crazy prices with help of BOMAD. Maybe I have missed the boat forever?

Same thing is happening in the states right now, just save the best you can without putting life on hold and eagerly wait for the event, last August and the New Year were teasers, things have become so crazy that is inevitable, the media just don't admit it for fear of self fulfilment.

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In the world of internet business there are "domainers" also known as "domain name squatters". They rent a domain names, and hold onto them in the hope that at some point a real business will want such a domain name, so they can sell it to them for many multiples higher. Often there is calculated speculation, a domainer might notice an up and coming business and bag the domain name or desirable domain names for such a business.

If you go to the domain name while being squatted, it is essentially empty with no website, only advertising links (to get the domainer some small revenue). The domainer hasn't produced anything and have placed themselves in the middle of an economically productive process in order to extract money. It's why some sites drop certain letters such as Tumblr or Flickr, as the full version of the word is already owned by someone who does nothing with the domain and wants a lot of money for it.

Among actual ecommerce and real business, these people are generally known as scum.

~

In housing there are "investors" also known as "Property Developers" who, often with borrowed money, purchase housing with the knowledge / hope that someone else will want it for its intended purpose. There are many empty homes and flats in the UK.

The "investor" hasn't produced anything and have placed themselves in the middle of a productive process (namely a persons wage for real work and their need for housing) in order to extract money. They may "do it up" as an aide to making it more expensive for someone who could have bought it to live in and did it up themselves. It's why B&Q are dying, infact as a whole this practice is part of why many businesses are dying as working wage money is sequestered into ever higher housing costs, as housing is often already owned by someone who does nothing with the house apart from want more money for it.

Among skilled working professionals, these people can be known as scum.

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Some good replies. It's certainly a relief to know I'm not the only one in this position. I never imagined I'd get to this age, run a successful business, have a deposit that's big enough to buy a house outright ten years ago in my area - and yet now not be able to get a mortgage on a crappy 2 bedroom flat. This is surely a sign that something has to give. Not everyone buying houses has had a free £300,000 gifted to them via HPI, so this bump in prices has to run out soon enough. I'll keep doing what I'm doing and hope for some sanity to return price wise. Anecdotally I had an estate agent ring me today. Because I'd enquired several years back about buying. Things must be desperate. I told him YES I am very interested in buying but not at these ridiculous prices.

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The domain thing is interesting: the regulator saw this and released hundreds of new TLDs as a workaround. It's the equivalent of Nobsore unveiling 5m new homes.

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But when? Some have been waiting since 2005 when things looked very bubbly. Would have to fall 70% in London just to get back to those over inflated prices. Its been building for 12+ years.

I honestly believe property will NEVER fall back to affordable levels in the UK. As in, never. The market's purpose is to force you into borrowing LOTS of money, not to give you an affordable roof over your head. This is why I am emigrating in a few months' time. Even if prices did fall to truly affordable levels, it will be a phyrric victory for many long-term HPC waiters when they can finally buy in their 60s (after 40 years of renting) - as in, affordable levels are deacdes away, Japan-style.

Edited by canbuywontbuy

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The domain thing is interesting: the regulator saw this and released hundreds of new TLDs as a workaround. It's the equivalent of Nobsore unveiling 5m new homes.

It's not a workaround. The .com domain remains the gold standard - the one that everyone wants.

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I'm pretty disappointed to see that most smaller houses in my area sold after the April 3% sdlt deadline are STILL coming up for rent on Rightmove... so obviously plenty of BTL scum still out there.

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Some good replies. It's certainly a relief to know I'm not the only one in this position. I never imagined I'd get to this age, run a successful business, have a deposit that's big enough to buy a house outright ten years ago in my area - and yet now not be able to get a mortgage on a crappy 2 bedroom flat. This is surely a sign that something has to give. Not everyone buying houses has had a free £300,000 gifted to them via HPI, so this bump in prices has to run out soon enough. I'll keep doing what I'm doing and hope for some sanity to return price wise. Anecdotally I had an estate agent ring me today. Because I'd enquired several years back about buying. Things must be desperate. I told him YES I am very interested in buying but not at these ridiculous prices.

You're just another mug who supports the system that scams you. A lot of us are on here. What can you do about it?

Anger is turning to despondency, it is palpable for me. I look at £60k jobs now and genuinely think what is the point? What are you actually offering me? 2 hours+ commuting, long hours, stress and (at best) a poxy flat at 8 times salary? Mugs game.

Edited by SillyBilly

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I honestly believe property will NEVER fall back to affordable levels in the UK. As in, never. The market's purpose is to force you into borrowing LOTS of money, not to give you an affordable roof over your head. This is why I am emigrating in a few months' time. Even if prices did fall to truly affordable levels, it will be a phyrric victory for many long-term HPC waiters when they can finally buy in their 60s (after 40 years of renting) - as in, affordable levels are deacdes away, Japan-style.

Interesting point as many places never do recover. Think about Hong Kong, New York, Seoul, Singapore, etc, people there aren't waiting around for a property market crash. Even Japan that has had years of steady slow falls is not affordable if you want to live anywhere near Tokyo and don't want to literally live in a box room.

My fear is that London has now joined those ranks. Yes there will be falls but it's debatable how affordable it would be even with a 50% crash. Sometimes when the damage is done it lasts for generations.

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