Wachowski Brothers, Nope, Sisters

[Hail the Tripod]

If they stick with this it'll be the end of professional sport for "conventional" women.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-rules-transgender-athletes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

[SpectrumFX]

My problem with all this that all of the gender these people are railing against is a social construct, not a biological one. If they were sitting there saying 'I want to have babies', fine, I could understand that. But it is the social constructs they are after: clothes and names.

If you stripped away the trappings of gender identity (i.e everyone dressed the same, played with the same toys and used the same bog), would these people still think they were the wrong gender? I'm thinking especially of the youngsters who are going down this path - how the hell does a 5 year old know what being female really is, other than they wear prettier clothes and don't like mud?

It's a popular view that gender identity is entirely a social construct. It's a difficult thing to test, and I can't imagine that there are many human personality traits that aren't the result of a complex interaction between both nature and nurture, but all the evidence I've seen is that gender identity is probably mostly innate. I've not got time now, but I'll post some links later if I get the time to get round to it.

[SpectrumFX]

Here we go for starters.

[rxe]

Not all of gender identity is social. But the important thing is that what these people are demanding are the social elements. Being 'treated like a woman' means different clothes, make up, using the ladies .... they're not asking for the real biological stuff like periods, babies, menopause. Gender roles are so interchangeable now that what you 'do', doesn't matter, you can do pretty much any job as a woman or a man.

Take away all of the social elements: what does it mean to be a woman or a man? Arguably it is a null decision, it means nothing in isolation. So biologically, what do these people actually want? Which leads me to the conclusion that this is a mental health issue....

[The Masked Tulip]

If they stick with this it'll be the end of professional sport for "conventional" women.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-rules-transgender-athletes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

Is it just me or do those rules seem somewhat sexist against men?

[Frank Hovis]

If they stick with this it'll be the end of professional sport for "conventional" women.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-rules-transgender-athletes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

It will indeed:

Meanwhile, male-to-female transgender athletes will need to demonstrate that their testosterone level has been below a certain cutoff point for at least one year before their first competition.

So if you are a decent level male tennis player and your desire for wealth and prizes outweighs your desire to retain your meat and two veg then off you go. Or if you fancy an Olympic gold and are reasonably big and strong have the op and then take up women's boxing.

I wonder what the PC reaction will be when the top three places in every women's race in the Olympics is filled by ex-men. Will they celebrate that women's times are closing the gap on the men for a very good reason?

[SpectrumFX]

Not all of gender identity is social. But the important thing is that what these people are demanding are the social elements. Being 'treated like a woman' means different clothes, make up, using the ladies .... they're not asking for the real biological stuff like periods, babies, menopause. Gender roles are so interchangeable now that what you 'do', doesn't matter, you can do pretty much any job as a woman or a man.

Take away all of the social elements: what does it mean to be a woman or a man? Arguably it is a null decision, it means nothing in isolation. So biologically, what do these people actually want? Which leads me to the conclusion that this is a mental health issue....

My understanding is that they want to be identified externally in the same manner as they identify internally.

If gender is a social construct, then you're right. There's simply an "error" in their social conditioning which we could term mental illness, and theoretically "fix" through therapy.

If gender identity is genetic, then no amount of conditioning "treatment" is going to fix the difference between internal and external identity.

My view is that gender identity is mostly genetic, and some people (in reality a very small number) end up with a mismatch in their physical and mental gender.

[Hail the Tripod]

It will indeed:

So if you are a decent level male tennis player and your desire for wealth and prizes outweighs your desire to retain your meat and two veg then off you go. Or if you fancy an Olympic gold and are reasonably big and strong have the op and then take up women's boxing.

I wonder what the PC reaction will be when the top three places in every women's race in the Olympics is filled by ex-men. Will they celebrate that women's times are closing the gap on the men for a very good reason?

But that's the point, you don't have to go anywhere near that far. Just suppress your testosterone levels for a year, and bag an olympic gold/world title.

[stormymonday_2011]

I wonder what the PC reaction will be when the top three places in every women's race in the Olympics is filled by ex-men. Will they celebrate that women's times are closing the gap on the men for a very good reason?

Not all the 'sisters' are that crazy about transgender and transexual people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_transgender_and_transsexual_people

Indeed, it is a bit of a divisive issue amongst them

Ironically, transgender 'mutilation' is not the contemporary fad some modern feminists imagine. It has a long religious history. In the ancient cult of Cybele the Galli who served the Anatolian mother goddess were self mutilated eunuchs whom Roman writers describe as shockingly effeminate

The Galli castrated themselves during an ecstatic celebration called the Dies sanguinis, or "Day of Blood", which took place on March 24.^[4] At the same time they put on women's costume, mostly yellow in colour, and a sort of turban, together with pendants and ear-rings. They also wore their hair long, and bleached, and wore heavy make-up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galli

And this is what Jesus has to say on the subject in the New Testament Matthew 19 12 (in answer to a question about marriage in general and the impossibility of eunuchs being able to marry).

For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Some conservative Christians try to argue that the final part of Jesus statement in Matthew 19 12 is an allusion to voluntary celibacy or impotence not castration but the Greek term used 'eunochos' generally means the latter not the former and Jesus appears to be using it in the same meaning as those who were made eunuchs of men (i.e. forcibly castrated)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_and_religion

Of course, the lopping off of the meat and two veg was probably a more common occurrence in the classical world for various reasons including ensuring that powerful royal servants did not start to get dynastic ambitions

[Rave]

I'm 100% straight but enjoy a bit of cross dressing. Anyone?

No?

Yeah well it took me a bit of time to get my head round it. I don't suffer from gender dysphoria, and so how the hell anyone who doesn't have it could presume to judge is beyond me.

[MrPin]

I'm 100% straight but enjoy a bit of cross dressing. Anyone?

No?

Yeah well it took me a bit of time to get my head round it. I don't suffer from gender dysphoria, and so how the hell anyone who doesn't have it could presume to judge is beyond me.

Is that to drive a bendy bus?

[Rave]

I've now got a licence to drive whatever flavour of bus; the bendier the better as far as I'm concerned!

[stormymonday_2011]

I'm 100% straight but enjoy a bit of cross dressing. Anyone?

No?

Are all transvestites homosexuals ?

Interestingly feminists who have a problem with transgender realignment don't seem to have such an issue with simple cross dressing perhaps because women wearing what was originally male attire in western society from underwear through trousers to cloth caps is now almost never remarked on as it would have been prior to the two World Wars.

The question of what is acceptable clothing for the sexes does reveal many of the inconsistencies in our supposedly liberal society. Men are far more likely to be cited for violation of general office dress codes than women in workplaces where uniforms are not the norm. The infamous DWP Jobcentre case from 2004 is an example of a civil service department attempting to apply these double standards. It is still legally acceptable for employers to state that women need only wear 'business attire' (whatever that is) while specifying that men must wear shirt, collar and ties.

[Butthead]

Article on the BBC website today about transgender children.

I don't want to grow a beard

Incredibly sad, whatever the reason those kids will certainly have a very tough time throughout their lives.

I must admit though that when I read that one 'girl' has a mother who split up with her actual dad, got with another woman, and that other woman by some huge conincidence is also transgender (fancy that!!) and has recently started the realignment process it did trigger some signficant cynicism.

"You prefer girl's toys don't you darling"

"That's just what a little girl would say!"

"Some people are born one way but should have been born another"

"Mummy always found it easier to talk to girls and women"

"Mummy prefers girls"

etc.

...and suddenly, before he has any idea about more or less anything, the poor kid thinks that he too is 'transgender'!

[Frank Hovis]

Yep, most young people go through a phase where they think that they're something else; because they're unhappy as they are and think that the grass is greener for boys / girls / straights / gays.

It's not a problem unless it results in categorisation for life or irreversible surgery.

[ccc]

"In the last year, 167 children aged 10 or under have been referred to clinics, almost double the number the previous year. They include three children aged three. It's something psychologists there put down to society becoming more accepting."

Aged three. Aged three. I consider this child abuse.

[happy_renting]

Some of these ex-men carry it off better than others.

As an aside, that is some really, really bad photoshopping.

[dgul]

"In the last year, 167 children aged 10 or under have been referred to clinics, almost double the number the previous year. They include three children aged three. It's something psychologists there put down to society becoming more accepting."

Aged three. Aged three. I consider this child abuse.

The three year olds are likely to be physically intersex and the consultation is to allow the child to grow up normally.

But the rest of the story sounds mad. I'm all for adults to choose to have bits chopped off* but these children can't make informed decisions. I really worry about dominant parents driving the child to a decision which is not in their best interests (as is suggested by the BBC story).

*although I do wonder about post-surgery suicide rates - I'd argue that psychological therapy should be the norm unless the guy really could pass well if he had surgery - this sits awkwardly with me as it sounds a bit 'cure gayness' but the suicide rates really do suggest that surgery might not actually be the best approach

[happy_renting]

Indeed, in fact I would go so far as to pass a law forbidding its discussion/advertisement etc in all walks of life.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

[ccc]

The three year olds are likely to be physically intersex and the consultation is to allow the child to grow up normally.

But the rest of the story sounds mad. I'm all for adults to choose to have bits chopped off* but these children can't make informed decisions. I really worry about dominant parents driving the child to a decision which is not in their best interests (as is suggested by the BBC story).

*although I do wonder about post-surgery suicide rates - I'd argue that psychological therapy should be the norm unless the guy really could pass well if he had surgery - this sits awkwardly with me as it sounds a bit 'cure gayness' but the suicide rates really do suggest that surgery might not actually be the best approach

Looks like surgery is only at 18+ and hormones etc.. from 16+.

So in terms of that angle it appears pretty reasonable. The rest from age 3 onwards is therapy and all the rest of it. I just think its not beyond the realms of possibility that a 3 year old [or a bit older if its only intersex kids at that young an age] who is just a bit confused or who knows whatever - has enough years of this so that by age 16 they really do feel they should be of the other sex. When if left be like used to happen - they may have come to a different conclusion.

[Hail the Tripod]

Looks like surgery is only at 18+ and hormones etc.. from 16+.

So in terms of that angle it appears pretty reasonable. The rest from age 3 onwards is therapy and all the rest of it. I just think its not beyond the realms of possibility that a 3 year old [or a bit older if its only intersex kids at that young an age] who is just a bit confused or who knows whatever - has enough years of this so that by age 16 they really do feel they should be of the other sex. When if left be like used to happen - they may have come to a different conclusion.

Depends what constitutes therapy. I don't know but it's easy to imagine that it's a whole bunch of "experts" supporting "their struggle" and silencing any dissenting opinions.

[ccc]

Depends what constitutes therapy. I don't know but it's easy to imagine that it's a whole bunch of "experts" supporting "their struggle" and silencing any dissenting opinions.

Well they must have numbers showing how many ended up having 'reassignment' and how many did not.

They could be quite telling.

[knock out johnny]

Depends what constitutes therapy. I don't know but it's easy to imagine that it's a whole bunch of "experts" supporting "their struggle" and silencing any dissenting opinions.

Anything with billable hours is my definition

[Rave]

Article on the BBC website today about transgender children.

I don't want to grow a beard

Incredibly sad, whatever the reason those kids will certainly have a very tough time throughout their lives.

I must admit though that when I read that one 'girl' has a mother who split up with her actual dad, got with another woman, and that other woman by some huge conincidence is also transgender (fancy that!!) and has recently started the realignment process it did trigger some signficant cynicism.

I thought it was a very good article, and they specifically state that the mum's partner didn't decide that 'he' was transgender until after the kid had.

But the rest of the story sounds mad. I'm all for adults to choose to have bits chopped off* but these children can't make informed decisions. I really worry about dominant parents driving the child to a decision which is not in their best interests (as is suggested by the BBC story).

*although I do wonder about post-surgery suicide rates - I'd argue that psychological therapy should be the norm unless the guy really could pass well if he had surgery - this sits awkwardly with me as it sounds a bit 'cure gayness' but the suicide rates really do suggest that surgery might not actually be the best approach

I approach this as someone who believes that gender dysphoria is a real condition, partly because the science AFAIK shows that transgender people do have demonstrably different brains to 'cis' people, and partly because I don't see why on earth people who consider themselves transgender would lie about how they feel. I'm not trans, so I don't know what it's like, just as I don't know what it's like to have bipolar disorder etc. etc. Anyway, the idea that any parent would, for their own ideological reasons, want to lead their child down a path that could well ultimately end in invasive, painful and irreversible surgery, and sterility- these parents aren't gonna be getting any biological grandkids from their transgender children- strikes me as very unlikely.

As for the suicide rate of people post surgical transition, yes it's high. But I daresay that these are people who realized/decided they were transgender after living as their biological sex for some time as an adult. The transition would be more of a shock, and having (presumably) grown up without the benefit of any hormone blockers, they're naturally going to find it more difficult to 'pass' post transition; and acceptance from their family, friends and colleagues must be that much harder to come by, as people have to get used to that person not being the sex they had become accustomed to them being...

As a humanist, and a general optimist (despite the fact that I'm pretty angry about the current state of the world), I do believe that these kids who have been allowed to assume the opposite gender at an early age with the loving support of their parents, schools etc. are likely to turn out to be happy and well adjusted post-transition. And the current system of prescribing hormone blockers to prevent them starting puberty, before allowing opposite sex hormones from the age of 16 is not IMO in any way harmful. Sex hormones do bring about significant and pretty much irreversible changes to people's bodies, and it's going to be that much harder for people to 'pass' if they're a woman with big broad shoulders and a strong chin, or a bloke with child-bearing hips. My little brother didn't start puberty until he was about 14 1/2 , his voice didn't break until he was gone 15, and he's a perfectly normal masculine bloke now, so I can't see how any long term harm can result from delaying puberty.

Of course it is very important to maintain a dialogue with the child in question to make sure that they are still happy with how things are going, it would be quite wrong for a 7 year old to declare themselves to be transgender and for everyone to then proceed as if that were the final word on the matter; they must see a good therapist or psychologist every few months to make sure that they're still 100% happy with the path they are on. But I think that people have a tendency to assume that kids are stupid, or that their feelings are not well founded. I'm sure I knew that I was heterosexual- or was at least perfectly content with the idea that I when I grew up would marry a woman and have kids with her- from the age of about 9. But had I been unhappy with that idea, either because I saw my future as living with another man, or because I would have preferred to grow up to be a woman, I daresay I would have been very unhappy if people hadn't taken me seriously.

[dgul]

I thought it was a very good article, and they specifically state that the mum's partner didn't decide that 'he' was transgender until after the kid had.

I approach this as someone who believes that gender dysphoria is a real condition, partly because the science AFAIK shows that transgender people do have demonstrably different brains to 'cis' people, and partly because I don't see why on earth people who consider themselves transgender would lie about how they feel. I'm not trans, so I don't know what it's like, just as I don't know what it's like to have bipolar disorder etc. etc. Anyway, the idea that any parent would, for their own ideological reasons, want to lead their child down a path that could well ultimately end in invasive, painful and irreversible surgery, and sterility- these parents aren't gonna be getting any biological grandkids from their transgender children- strikes me as very unlikely.

As for the suicide rate of people post surgical transition, yes it's high. But I daresay that these are people who realized/decided they were transgender after living as their biological sex for some time as an adult. The transition would be more of a shock, and having (presumably) grown up without the benefit of any hormone blockers, they're naturally going to find it more difficult to 'pass' post transition; and acceptance from their family, friends and colleagues must be that much harder to come by, as people have to get used to that person not being the sex they had become accustomed to them being...

As a humanist, and a general optimist (despite the fact that I'm pretty angry about the current state of the world), I do believe that these kids who have been allowed to assume the opposite gender at an early age with the loving support of their parents, schools etc. are likely to turn out to be happy and well adjusted post-transition. And the current system of prescribing hormone blockers to prevent them starting puberty, before allowing opposite sex hormones from the age of 16 is not IMO in any way harmful. Sex hormones do bring about significant and pretty much irreversible changes to people's bodies, and it's going to be that much harder for people to 'pass' if they're a woman with big broad shoulders and a strong chin, or a bloke with child-bearing hips. My little brother didn't start puberty until he was about 14 1/2 , his voice didn't break until he was gone 15, and he's a perfectly normal masculine bloke now, so I can't see how any long term harm can result from delaying puberty.

Of course it is very important to maintain a dialogue with the child in question to make sure that they are still happy with how things are going, it would be quite wrong for a 7 year old to declare themselves to be transgender and for everyone to then proceed as if that were the final word on the matter; they must see a good therapist or psychologist every few months to make sure that they're still 100% happy with the path they are on. But I think that people have a tendency to assume that kids are stupid, or that their feelings are not well founded. I'm sure I knew that I was heterosexual- or was at least perfectly content with the idea that I when I grew up would marry a woman and have kids with her- from the age of about 9. But had I been unhappy with that idea, either because I saw my future as living with another man, or because I would have preferred to grow up to be a woman, I daresay I would have been very unhappy if people hadn't taken me seriously.

I think that is reasonable, but:

My point about the suicide rates is exactly what you were saying - so is it ethical to proceed with a gender swap if there is an increased risk of suicide post transition? This isn't as simple as 'it is their choice' and is something I find troubling about the whole gender swap process.

The point about children is similar - does a child of 7-10 truly understand about their 'internal' gender? What is the psychological consequence of allowing a child to live as the other gender for 5 years (say), and then change their mind? Is this (in the long term) more psychologically damaging than not allowing them to transition (but also not suggesting it is an option) up to a given age? These are deeply complex questions - while they might be well understood by the specialist child gender psychs I can't see this information to help me make an informed judgement.