Hpc To Impoverish Savers - Boe

[Neverwhere]

Interesting. According to Osbourne these measures are just to help OO. If the bank is actually on bubble-crash panic stations does that mean the government (and BTL !) are the last to know ?

That's not quite correct, but I can totally understand how you might be under that impression from the media coverage. From Osborne's Summer Budget 2015 speech (emphasis added):

Today I set out three important changes that will address unfairness in our taxation of property, and put the security of home ownership first.

First, we will create a more level playing-field between those buying a home to let, and those who are buying a home to live in.

Buy-to-let landlords have a huge advantage in the market as they can offset their mortgage interest payments against their income, whereas homebuyers cannot.

And the better-off the landlord, the more tax relief they get.

For the wealthiest, every pound of mortgage interest costs they incur, they get 45p back from the taxpayer.

All this has contributed to the rapid growth in buy-to-let properties, which now account for over 15% of new mortgages, something the Bank of England warned us last week could pose a risk to our financial stability.

So we will act – but we will act in a proportionate and gradual way, because I know that many hardworking people who’ve saved and invested in property depend on the rental income they get.

So we will retain mortgage interest relief on residential property, but we will now restrict it to the basic rate of income tax.

And to help people adjust, we will phase in the withdrawal of the higher rate reliefs over a four year period, and only start withdrawal in April 2017.

Expect this to come up as one of the central arguments should the BTL judicial review bid get anywhere near an actual court.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Neverwhere

[justthisbloke]

Sorry Venger, on a website that is 99% against the current system being totally fracked up, you attack people for even suggesting that it is in order to try and get it put right.

If the system didnt allow exactly what you are complaining about, I suggest you try, like others to get it fixed.

LIAR LOANS can only occur as widespread as they do because the lenders allow it.

What you are saying is that a fraud victim is their own worst enemy, so lets forget about the fraudster taking advantage of all these people and go poke our tongue out at the victims chanting " you hurt me, now its my turn"...

Me, Id rather understand the fraud, how it is hidden and try to educate...to avoid victims.

It is a strange person who buys in to a ponzi scheme to NOT tell people how well they have done getting in. The Ponzi RELIES on this trait to keep going. The Ponzi is, nevertheless, a crime.

While I agree that Venger can be a bit trigger happy and fierce than is conducive for convivial debate, I'm totally with him when it comes to the "there are no innocents" line.

Partly on the practical basis of there being so many practical active steps that one needs to take to become a BTL-er. It's not a quick sleight of hand con on a "victim". The process takes weeks - weeks of form filling, legal documents, Key Facts Documents, and working with lawyers, etc. Which is why anyone who uses the term "accidental landlord" needs to be swiftly and repeatedly punched in the face.

Also, the implications of the "poor victims" line is too dystopian to contemplate. If educated people with the advice of multiple lawyers and other professionals cannot be responsible for their own lives and financial decisions then who can?

[Noallegiance]

Yes... your posts about no one having any personal responsibility for anything

Except that's not what I'm saying. You make that bit up so you can go on one of your high blood pressure cut and paste rants.

It's always a fruitless debate when people make stuff up or (ironically for you) do the advertising thing and only pick out sections of argument that suit narrative in order to force a result that may not suit the situation.

Anyway, it appears to have rewound to 6 months ago so I'll bow out again.

[zugzwang]

Yes... your posts about no one having any personal responsibility for anything.

Fairytale.

Advertising, and no one to blame for their own choices in life. In fact, hankering to a notion that choices are not their own. Where does it end?

More QE is it?

No greed, no recklessness.... only those who have caution/critical thinking should be renter-forever-losers.

No one with really awful world-views. (eg many BTLers - see one of our main threads).

Just advertising and the banks to blame for everything. And Gov. And whoever else, but the people.

If it's a ponzi scheme then by definition it must be fraudulent. This was transparently the case prior to 2008.

The recent, largely cosmetic, moves against BTL are advertised by the Bank as an exercise in curtailing reckless and irresponsible lending to the sector, suggesting that little has changed fundamentally. Since no-one of substance was imprisoned or even charged over the events that led up to the GFC, perhaps we shouldn't be surprised that it's business-as-usual in the Crooked Mile.

[Bloo Loo]

While I agree that Venger can be a bit trigger happy and fierce than is conducive for convivial debate, I'm totally with him when it comes to the "there are no innocents" line.

Partly on the practical basis of there being so many practical active steps that one needs to take to become a BTL-er. It's not a quick sleight of hand con on a "victim". The process takes weeks - weeks of form filling, legal documents, Key Facts Documents, and working with lawyers, etc. Which is why anyone who uses the term "accidental landlord" needs to be swiftly and repeatedly punched in the face.

Also, the implications of the "poor victims" line is too dystopian to contemplate. If educated people with the advice of multiple lawyers and other professionals cannot be responsible for their own lives and financial decisions then who can?

Yes there are practical steps to go through...Im not saying, and never have,that these people Are victims, in the common sense.

But, there is no step in the process where someone will tell you dont do it. They may say have you considered this, that or the other, and each time a block is set to be overcome, the BTLer will experience the fear of a failed application...this will have the effect of making him wanting to perform even harder to make that dream come true...The IFA, will hear what the block is, he will seek advice, and I bet my last dollar that he will find a way.

Ive never said they are poor victims...I have said they see themselves as poor victims...victims are people who sue, who complain about the injustice loudly, proclaiming their innocence...when all around can see it was their own folly.

Im also not sure if the process is as onerous as you say...it certainly never used to be, and the BoE have said they are concerned that criteria have dropped....

My view remains, the market is credit led, and to sell credit, the gloss has to be ladled on heavy, thick and sweet...and it is.

[Bloo Loo]

While I agree that Venger can be a bit trigger happy and fierce than is conducive for convivial debate, I'm totally with him when it comes to the "there are no innocents" line.

Partly on the practical basis of there being so many practical active steps that one needs to take to become a BTL-er. It's not a quick sleight of hand con on a "victim". The process takes weeks - weeks of form filling, legal documents, Key Facts Documents, and working with lawyers, etc. Which is why anyone who uses the term "accidental landlord" needs to be swiftly and repeatedly punched in the face.

Also, the implications of the "poor victims" line is too dystopian to contemplate. If educated people with the advice of multiple lawyers and other professionals cannot be responsible for their own lives and financial decisions then who can?

Yes there are practical steps to go through...Im not saying, and never have,that these people Are victims, in the common sense.

But, there is no step in the process where someone will tell you dont do it. They may say have you considered this, that or the other, and each time a block is set to be overcome, the BTLer will experience the fear of a failed application...this will have the effect of making him wanting to perform even harder to make that dream come true...The IFA, will hear what the block is, he will seek advice, and I bet my last dollar that he will find a way.

Ive never said they are poor victims...I have said they see themselves as poor victims...victims are people who sue, who complain about the injustice loudly, proclaiming their innocence...when all around can see it was their own folly.

Im also not sure if the process is as onerous as you say...it certainly never used to be, and the BoE have said they are concerned that criteria have dropped....

My view remains, the market is credit led, and to sell credit, the gloss has to be ladled on heavy, thick and sweet...and it is.

Yes... your posts about no one having any personal responsibility for anything.

Fairytale.

Advertising, and no one to blame for their own choices in life. In fact, hankering to a notion that choices are not their own. Where does it end?

More QE is it?

No greed, no recklessness.... only those who have caution/critical thinking should be renter-forever-losers.

No one with really awful world-views. (eg many BTLers - see one of our main threads).

Just advertising and the banks to blame for everything. And Gov. And whoever else, but the people.

Im sorry Mr V, but a lot of people have no sense of responsibility...There are whole movements in the Feminism, racism and immigration games that want a result, go hang the consequences...Its more common than you think.

Few people relish the idea they were wrong.

[billybong]

House price crash could leave savers without cash to fund retirement, Bank official warns

So the telegraph (and the BoE) article is warning about BtL but seems to split the UK economy just into two. The BtL "savers" pen or the usual type of savers pen. So it's risk any money in a BtL crash or have it stolen by the BoE/banks/government. Which pen (baaa) - you takes your choice.

Yeah the crooks are so concerned about your "savings" but now the BtL crash is imminent they don't want the backlash due to them so they're covering themselves. They warned they're doing everything they can to enrich BtLers (for the sake of the UK ) but their efforts could fail.

BtLers only have themselves to blame - their investment's gone wrong. Savers only have themselves to blame - should one have expected anything different when "run" by thieves and fraudsters.

The UK economy is so wrecked by the BoE/government crooks. Truly things are run like a bent farm.

Hey you've got a vote - bent farmer 1, 2 or 3...

Edited March 30, 2016 by billybong

[Bruce Banner]

Am I too harsh in thinking that anyone who puts all their money into highly geared property investment should, if it goes wrong, be forced to repay any shortfall from their state pension and if that leaves them living on the street, tough!

[Bloo Loo]

What would it be like? This world you set out.

Certain decisions (and you include so much in there - from failed relationships to housing).... 'not their own decisions'.

Would they accept personal responsibility in your new world? Would they be allowed any, more importantly. Always something to blame with your way of thinking, imo.

"Oh my BTL investment failed.. someone else's fault. Was advertising."

How do you get to where you want to be. Ban advertising? Ban Governments? Limit choices and free-will? Bring in communism?

the other point, is that politicians have, in the case of the money markets and the housing markets, made available a number of tools to take away the consequences of bad decisions...

take away the risk, and why would you care about your decisions, after all, "they" wont let it happen.

Well, it appears "they" are making it happen for a group of borrowers, and have sent a warning to the institutions lapping it all up.

The people soon to be affected are bleating, because they were told by their peers, the TV, the advertising, that they had made the right decisions.

You do realise that not all advertising is about the initial sale...its about reaffirming your decision...

Nearly 20 years of HPI on the back of looser and looser lending, even your 45 year old hasnt really had to pay the price of a bad decision. Indeed, one could be forgiven in thinking that their bad decision to get in was correct, and yours to stay out was incorrect, on some levels.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Bloo Loo

[LC1]

Also, the implications of the "poor victims" line is too dystopian to contemplate. If educated people with the advice of multiple lawyers and other professionals cannot be responsible for their own lives and financial decisions then who can?

This is the crux of it. There is no sleight of hand, no deception. People walk willingly into such things with their eyes open (no excuse if not).

Turns out you made a bad decision? Life lessons are hard sometimes, but you'll surely be more aware of potential downside risks next time. End of story.

[sisyphal]

mumsnet are saying it would be a disaster if house prices fell and wouldn't help anyone http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2603052-To-think-saying-house-prices-could-crash-if-we-brexit-will-be-a-plus-for-many

Can't believe I just read through that, the amount of stupidity and short-sighted thinking is unbelievable. The ones who want prices to go up so they can 'move up the ladder'

suzannecaravaggio has her head screwed on, I bet it's someone from here.

[fluteroop]

It's another...We can't let it happen article.

The "savers" i.e. the BTL speculators, must be protected.

The pension grab has had the desired effect by the looks of it, pensioners have taken their cash and invested randomly in BTLs at peak mega bubble prices.

This article now want to make sure there is no crash and people are protected by trying to regulate the BTL lending.

It's more f**king criminal market manipulation IMHO.

The BTLers, the property speculators, the boomers, the pre 1998 buyers..,..their wealth is to be protected ( better still, enlarged at incredible rates ), meanwhile the savers and the young are thrown to the bankers

The bankers are obviously worried the prices have now become unstable and are trying to manage the market (IMHO).

The bankers should be in prison (IMHO).

Every word spot on. We must must must protect the feckless and the irresponsible. We must marginalise the truthful.

[Venger]

Bloo... they've been laying claim to homes via BTL. High prices, and low inventory on market for years.

Yes there are practical steps to go through...Im not saying, and never have,that these people Are victims, in the common sense.

But, there is no step in the process where someone will tell you dont do it. They may say have you considered this, that or the other, and each time a block is set to be overcome, the BTLer will experience the fear of a failed application...this will have the effect of making him wanting to perform even harder to make that dream come true...The IFA, will hear what the block is, he will seek advice, and I bet my last dollar that he will find a way.

Ive never said they are poor victims...I have said they see themselves as poor victims...victims are people who sue, who complain about the injustice loudly, proclaiming their innocence...when all around can see it was their own folly.

Im also not sure if the process is as onerous as you say...it certainly never used to be, and the BoE have said they are concerned that criteria have dropped....

My view remains, the market is credit led, and to sell credit, the gloss has to be ladled on heavy, thick and sweet...and it is.

Im sorry Mr V, but a lot of people have no sense of responsibility...There are whole movements in the Feminism, racism and immigration games that want a result, go hang the consequences...Its more common than you think.

Few people relish the idea they were wrong.

So many of the BTLers haven't been proven wrong (for the rent and HPI they have positioned for). They've seen massive gainz.

I hope they will be proven wrong.

Who do you expect to step up and tell them that they're wrong to invest in BTL, when most of us can't afford 1 home / or refuse to pay these prices... HPI year on year on year.

They have their own lives and world-views. I'm not going to insult people by claiming no one knows anything or we know better than them - it's certainly not felt that way on my side vs raging HPI years, and prices at ever higher peaks. They make their choices in a market.

And point of fact, they've been right (for the profit seeking they want at expense of others) past few years, with the HPI mad-gainz.

Try telling Sleeps (accountant as I recall it) - that he's been a victim of BTL...? (Although I hope any HPI/BTL friends he has, have doubled down into it, and will be found out in a HPC)./

Whereabouts are you?

Where I am in North Hampshire lower priced properties are selling very quickly. To give an example a two bedroom terraced house sold in 2013 for £180K. The identical house next door sold last month for £230K. Apartments at under £200K don't stay on the market for long.

It has now been rented for £1000 per month. That's a 5.2% yield, no letting agent involved and maintenance costs on a 10 year old house are unlikely to be very high. If the new owner has financed it themself that's a much higher yield than cash on deposit. And its an investment as safe as houses.

I know you lot will flame me, but this is the mindset you are disparaging. So far this has prevailed over your hopes for an HPC. If the owner is looking at the investment as a future pension then in 16 years the cost will have been recovered, in nominal terms. Thereon it looks to be a better investment than letting the financial services industry pick your pocket. Even if the capital value falls there isn't really a problem as long as rents stay in line with RPI or CPI.

The certainty of mathematics is not something that has appealed to my logic. I tend to focus more on the adaptability of people and the nuances of their behaviour that circumstances dictate; although intuitively rather than empirically.

Throughout the ages property values have kept pace with inflation and are likely to continue to do so. And will until there is a fall in population growth. But I guess demographic trends are not your strong point.

You have to accept individuals have to take ownership of their own market decisions... even if advertising is part of it.

Two homes+ in inventory and extreme high price market. MEWing. Risk. Choices. My view has long been BTLers lining themselves up for losing a lot, during these years of BTL festing. Now Gov and policy is turning on them, let it play out.

Only now are some of the BTLers seeing themselves as victims... including BTLers with homes worth £4m, and £1.5m in BTL debt.

And still others trying to pile into BTL on daily basis - see other forum threads. I want HPC, for gain of younger generations - not another bailout, and more pain on renter-savers/young. Take ownership own market decisions.

[Neverwhere]

While I agree that Venger can be a bit trigger happy and fierce than is conducive for convivial debate, I'm totally with him when it comes to the "there are no innocents" line.

Partly on the practical basis of there being so many practical active steps that one needs to take to become a BTL-er. It's not a quick sleight of hand con on a "victim". The process takes weeks - weeks of form filling, legal documents, Key Facts Documents, and working with lawyers, etc. Which is why anyone who uses the term "accidental landlord" needs to be swiftly and repeatedly punched in the face.

Also, the implications of the "poor victims" line is too dystopian to contemplate. If educated people with the advice of multiple lawyers and other professionals cannot be responsible for their own lives and financial decisions then who can?

This is the crux of it. There is no sleight of hand, no deception. People walk willingly into such things with their eyes open (no excuse if not).

Turns out you made a bad decision? Life lessons are hard sometimes, but you'll surely be more aware of potential downside risks next time. End of story.

+ 1 to both.

The person saying "don't do it" should be the individual considering it, who should be aware that they are fallible and don't always make perfect decisions, and that the amount of money involved is non-trivial and high risk. The only way people can learn these things is by being allowed to wear the consequences of their poor decisions when they make them.

The idea of people as objects with no ability to make choices of their own, of adults who can't be allowed to make their own decisions or take responsibility for their own actions, is dystopian in the extreme. How could a society which regarded people in this manner do anything other than move towards a system of rigorous and all-pervading control over the the populace at large in order to counteract our apparent inability to think for ourselves?

[Bloo Loo]

Mr V, nobody has to tell them they are wrong...They should fail and fall. The word will soon get around.

The system has moved Worlds to make sure they havent failed or fallen in any useful numbers.

The system is being changed...NOW they are victims in their own minds...victims of a change in circumstance, not in their decision.

Its clearly not fair....in their eyes.

[Bloo Loo]

snip

The idea of people as objects with no ability to make choices of their own, of adults who can't be allowed to make their own decisions or take responsibility for their own actions, is dystopian in the extreme. How could a society which regarded people in this manner do anything other than move towards a system of rigorous and all-pervading control over the the populace at large in order to counteract our apparent inability to think for ourselves?

yep, see US University outrage, safe spaces, Norfolk racists wearing Sombreros, extreme lefties wanting to open our borders to all, european one way tolerance of immigrant crimes and wholesale changes to communities.

Its here.

[Venger]

Am I too harsh in thinking that anyone who puts all their money into highly geared property investment should, if it goes wrong, be forced to repay any shortfall from their state pension and if that leaves them living on the street, tough!

Not for me (too harsh in thinking) - but the way things are on HPC, I personally wouldn't dare to post that.

Surely my family should just work harder, stop buying iphones, and help the victim BTLers... perhaps offer to pay more rent. Don't you realise BTLers get dragged into banks for BTL mortgages, and to viewings for homes on Rightmove... and to solicitors to arrange everything else... with surveys and what not. Pure innocence. Advertising. Banks. Nothing to do with individuals being greedy/reckless.

.... I'm totally with him when it comes to the "there are no innocents" line.

Partly on the practical basis of there being so many practical active steps that one needs to take to become a BTL-er. It's not a quick sleight of hand con on a "victim". The process takes weeks - weeks of form filling, legal documents, Key Facts Documents, and working with lawyers, etc. Which is why anyone who uses the term "accidental landlord" needs to be swiftly and repeatedly punched in the face.

Also, the implications of the "poor victims" line is too dystopian to contemplate. If educated people with the advice of multiple lawyers and other professionals cannot be responsible for their own lives and financial decisions then who can?

It shouldn't even be an issue of discussion really. Not in 2016. 7-8 years later. HPC avoided... BTL going mad again 2010 onwards. 'Mad Gainz'. London madness. All this time positioning, knowing BTLers greedily doubling down... and then a few squealing BTLers enough to bring out this victim argument again.

When so many priced out younger people. Needs to be a stomach. We've not even begun any HPC, and some with no stomach for it. Or Campervanman here with his BTL. Whatever Pig's VI is.. social housing solution and fix prices steady 'best way'.

We've got other hpc-ers who still think it's HPI+++ to longer term future as well. It's a market.

This is the crux of it. There is no sleight of hand, no deception. People walk willingly into such things with their eyes open (no excuse if not).

Turns out you made a bad decision? Life lessons are hard sometimes, but you'll surely be more aware of potential downside risks next time. End of story.

+1.

Bad decision for many of us was not to lie in bubble 1.0 early years. To be reckless as the others. However I've got something about me that is proud I did not - refused to lie or take on much bigger than income-safe-level mortgage. Not even concerned with my own housing future any more, but for fairness for younger family and younger generations. Now BTLers up against a lot of changed policy. Hard markets work both ways.

[fluteroop]

Its here.

Gotta love it eh. Sleep well, be happy, take pills if you're not etc

[dances with sheeple]

mumsnet are saying it would be a disaster if house prices fell and wouldn't help anyone http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2603052-To-think-saying-house-prices-could-crash-if-we-brexit-will-be-a-plus-for-many

Err...Errrr ...I need prices to quadruple, at least, to take my next poorly thought out mentalist step up "The Ladder"!

Some of the usual B.S on that thread, some sense, and more than a whiff of fear. Sites like that and the MSE main board are good bellwethers of when sentiment is about to get kicked in the a*rse.

[Neverwhere]

Mr V, nobody has to tell them they are wrong...They should fail and fall. The word will soon get around.

The system has moved Worlds to make sure they havent failed or fallen in any useful numbers.

The system is being changed...NOW they are victims in their own minds...victims of a change in circumstance, not in their decision.

Its clearly not fair....in their eyes.

I think the point is that indulging them in their delusion doesn't actually help matters and potentially moves us more towards a dystopian society of control. Not everything people think about themselves is correct. Sometimes how they describe themselves is a ruse to get the outcome they want, or to maintain the self-image that flatters their own egos, rather than an accurate reflection of them as they actually are. We don't have to buy into it or use the words that they want us to use.

[Neverwhere]

...When so many priced out younger people. Needs to be a stomach. We've not even begun any HPC, and some with no stomach for it. Or Campervanman here with his BTL. Whatever Pig's VI is.. social housing solution and fix prices steady 'best way'...

To be fair to Campervanman I don't think he has a BTL (although I guess that "purchased with cash" does not necessarily translate to continued lack of gearing) just an unleveraged rental property, so he's not contributing to financial stability risk just keeping a property off the market and out of owner occupation during a homeownership crisis for younger generations.

[Venger]

To be fair to Campervanman I don't think he has a BTL (although I guess that "purchased with cash" does not necessarily translate to continued lack of gearing) just an unleveraged rental property, so he's not contributing to financial stability risk just keeping a property off the market and out of owner occupation during a homeownership crisis for younger generations.

Ok - yes, accepted. Investment property then. Or hedge, whatever he wants to call it.

What did 8Y say... ah yes.

The OP has a UK property he rents out.

Lives in France (iirc).

Given a different house away (and here doesn't mention the other rental property he rents out).

Yet so often pushes against any claim that boomers have had easy ride of gainz vs the young. And now here on this thread, posting about BTLers being misled.

You have to feel sorry for the 30 somethings who have piled into free money btl after watching HUTH. All those cash flow projections trashed by their heroes.

Where's the emotion for the renter-savers, when HPC not even begun yet. When HPC not even proven in minds of millions as any future risk. Sorry for the rentiers who chose to go into it, and is so many instances, seen nothing but mad HPI for years.

Not guilty. I donated my 4 bedder to a genX family 8 years ago and decided to no longer deprive anyone of a smaller UK house either.

Cushty cushty. That's some accumulation of wealth along the way.

I have one property in the UK that I rent out. It was purchased with cash. The house is just there as an insurance policy, it will by my UK residence eventually. The only thing I need is a tennant in situ, the rent only needs to cover the overheads, I do not need or want a return on investment as the money tied up in the property was just dead money sitting on deposit earning diddly squat. Whilst there are others who are heavily indebted who bought several properties as an alternative to earning an honest living, there are also probably many more like me.

Most people lose money on their insurance policies.

Such a shame.

[Venger]

While I agree that Venger can be a bit trigger happy and fierce than is conducive for convivial debate, I'm totally with him when it comes to the "there are no innocents" line.

Partly on the practical basis of there being so many practical active steps that one needs to take to become a BTL-er. It's not a quick sleight of hand con on a "victim". The process takes weeks - weeks of form filling, legal documents, Key Facts Documents, and working with lawyers, etc. Which is why anyone who uses the term "accidental landlord" needs to be swiftly and repeatedly punched in the face.

Also, the implications of the "poor victims" line is too dystopian to contemplate. If educated people with the advice of multiple lawyers and other professionals cannot be responsible for their own lives and financial decisions then who can?

BTW - I accept the first part, and agree with everything else in your post.

Good post.

Email: How else am I supposed to reply on this subject...postings that individuals are victims and have no choice in their decisions with BTL. 'If only someone told them' - '(what.... they would realise BTL was wrong/risky'.) - So sad - too bad, if it's HPC in future. Market. Years of waiting against BTL doubling down... HPI year on year on year to new peaks. Now... BTLers as victims of advertising?

Choices and decisions, and no BTL losses yet in many parts. HPC not even in the minds as any real risk of majority on BTL/owner side - at least for now

Blandy/Idlewild posted:

[...]People may find the locals unbearable, but there must always be locals. Do we propose a social space where all voices are honoured equally, in defiance of their mastery of reason and evidence?

[...]In my opinion, these boards are a battleground, and there will be fighting. You can elect to remain aloof. But for those of us deprived of homes by the voice of reason tw@ts expecting us to rent from them forever, this is the f**king front line, and I fight, and I give it my best shot.

[Bruce Banner]

Not for me (too harsh in thinking) - but the way things are on HPC, I personally wouldn't dare to post that.

Surely my family should just work harder, stop buying iphones, and help the victim BTLers... perhaps offer to pay more rent. Don't you realise BTLers get dragged into banks for BTL mortgages, and to viewings for homes on Rightmove... and to solicitors to arrange everything else... with surveys and what not. Pure innocence. Advertising. Banks. Nothing to do with individuals being greedy/reckless.

Why? It's only fair that those who seek highly geared gains should accept the other side of the coin which is highly geared losses.

If people wish to help out they can do so with cash donations, into a tin cup!

Bailouts using taxpayers money are theft.

[Neverwhere]

Why? It's only fair that those who seek highly geared gains should accept the other side of the coin which is highly geared losses.

If people wish to help out they can do so with cash donations, into a tin cup!

Bailouts using taxpayers money are theft.

+ 1

And they have already enjoyed lavish bailouts!

BTL was back at the expense of taxpayers and savers, as the ability of banks to service this relatively new market was undoubtedly saved by the British government's bank bailout. BTL only formally started in 1996. Yet, remarkably, in 2010 I established that 56 per cent of BTL mortgages ever lent in Britain were sitting on the books of bailed-out banks.

Roughly half of the outstanding BTL mortgage stock is being nursed by the state in some form. At the time of the bailout, Bradford & Bingley and Northern Rock had, between them, BTL mortgage liabilities worth £30 billion, all of which came into government hands. I subsequently found out - from figures that the mortgage industry did not want released - that about 65 per cent of BTL lending in the year after the banking bust was coming from banks that had been bailed out. In the absense of the bailout, little of this business would have been done, and the existing BTL mortgages would have been dealt with far more harshly. Buy-to-let had become a quasi-nationalised industry.

- Faisal Islam, The Default Line