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John The Pessimist

Hpc To Impoverish Savers - Boe

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Interesting. According to Osbourne these measures are just to help OO. If the bank is actually on bubble-crash panic stations does that mean the government (and BTL !) are the last to know ?

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However, he warned that if house prices crashed, this posed a risk for pensioners who relied on property investments to fund their retirement.

You could make a case those with Premium Bonds are savers - and so the headline - but BTLers are investors.

Markets can change, and no guaranteed win - for those who have chosen, or still want to try and buy up homes to rent out to others?

Generally to those priced out - can't afford one home, yet so much focus on those generally with more than 1 property.

In an inventory and affordability crisis for younger people?

Renter-savers learned the hard way markets can change, from HPI++ massiv. Bailey having to tell BTLers/would-be BTLers the basics in life? No guaranteed win.

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It's another...We can't let it happen article.

The "savers" i.e. the BTL speculators, must be protected.

The pension grab has had the desired effect by the looks of it, pensioners have taken their cash and invested randomly in BTLs at peak mega bubble prices.

This article now want to make sure there is no crash and people are protected by trying to regulate the BTL lending.

It's more f**king criminal market manipulation IMHO.

The BTLers, the property speculators, the boomers, the pre 1998 buyers..,..their wealth is to be protected ( better still, enlarged at incredible rates ), meanwhile the savers and the young are thrown to the bankers

The bankers are obviously worried the prices have now become unstable and are trying to manage the market (IMHO).

The bankers should be in prison (IMHO).

Edited by TheCountOfNowhere

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It's another...We can't let it happen article.

The "savers" i.e. the BTL speculators, must be protected.

The pension grab has had the desired effect by the looks of it, pensioners have taken their cash and invested randomly in BTLs at peak mega bubble prices.

This article now want to make sure there is no crash and people are protected by trying to regulate the BTL lending.

It's more f**king criminal market manipulation IMHO.

The BTLers, the property speculators, the boomers, the pre 1998 buyers..,..their wealth is to be protected ( better still, enlarged at incredible rates ), meanwhile the savers and the young are thrown to the bankers

The bankers are obviously worried the prices have now become unstable and are trying to manage the market.

You could make a case those with Premium Bonds are savers - and so the headline - but BTLers are investors.

Markets can change, and no guaranteed win - for those who have chosen, or still want to try and buy up homes to rent out to others?

Generally to those priced out - can't afford one home, yet so much focus on those generally with more than 1 property.

In an inventory and affordability crisis for younger people?

Renter-savers learned the hard way markets can change, from HPI++ massiv. Bailey having to tell BTLers/would-be BTLers the basics in life? No guaranteed win.

My premium bonds are going thew way of a foreign exchange account this week.

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  1. House price crash could leave savers without cash to fund retirement http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/29/house-price-crash-could-leave-savers-without-cash-to-fund-retire/ @Telegraph Savers? SPECULATORS !!!




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  2. @Telegraph Actual savers, through low interest rates, have been robbed blind to support the bankers and keep their #MegaBubble inflated.




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  3. @Telegraph Meanwhile the MSM stay silent on the HTB Lunacy The expenses scandal is chicken feed in comparison







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  5. @Renegade_Inc @Telegraph Are we the only people who see this ? The police should be looking at this IMHO.




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Renegade Inc.@Renegade_Inc



@ShiresCrashing Tories tried to get UK working but was too difficult so thought of their political ambition and inflated housing - again.






11:32 PM - 29 Mar 2016






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It's another...We can't let it happen article.

The "savers" i.e. the BTL speculators, must be protected.

The pension grab has had the desired effect by the looks of it, pensioners have taken their cash and invested randomly in BTLs at peak mega bubble prices.

This article now want to make sure there is no crash and people are protected by trying to regulate the BTL lending.

It's more f**king criminal market manipulation IMHO.

The BTLers, the property speculators, the boomers, the pre 1998 buyers..,..their wealth is to be protected ( better still, enlarged at incredible rates ), meanwhile the savers and the young are thrown to the bankers

The bankers are obviously worried the prices have now become unstable and are trying to manage the market (IMHO).

The bankers should be in prison (IMHO).

I'm taking this all to mean fear has kicked in.

They should be in prison, like many other countries have done. It could happen one day, times are shifting.

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At least Bailey now seems to have got the idea that subprime lending is dangerous. Too bad it didn't occur to him fifteen years go. The again, with a degree in History, anything involving scientific literacy was bound to be a struggle.

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At least Bailey now seems to have got the idea that subprime lending is dangerous. Too bad it didn't occur to him fifteen years go. The again, with a degree in History, anything involving scientific literacy was bound to be a struggle.

Im sure all the top bankers know lending money to people who can't afford to repay it is ultimately a bad idea.

It's a great idea if the tax payers bail you out.

It's a bad idea if the tax payers start hanging you from lamp-posts though :lol::lol::lol:

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Im sure all the top bankers know lending money to people who can't afford to repay it is ultimately a bad idea.

It's a great idea if the tax payers bail you out.

It's a bad idea if the tax payers start hanging you from lamp-posts though :lol::lol::lol:

So far its been a great idea......and behaviour rewarded increases.....

Edited by Motor_Blade

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I'm taking this all to mean fear has kicked in.

They should be in prison, like many other countries have done. It could happen one day, times are shifting.

What about the BTLers.

4 bankers sharing a rented-house in London, smug landlord in paper the other day, well happy about it.

Many of today's bankers are not to blame. If they've lured them in to double down, then stomach for the HPC please... and more attack on the BTLers, less on the bankers. We're on the cusp of it. You can't turn back time, so let's focus on here and now. My family wants strong banks to handle HPC, and for future (smaller) mortgages.

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Im sure all the top bankers know lending money to people who can't afford to repay it is ultimately a bad idea.

It's a great idea if the tax payers bail you out.

It's a bad idea if the tax payers start hanging you from lamp-posts though :lol::lol::lol:

and there shouldnt be an arbitrage opportunity in a market that is created deliberately by participants in that market.

The BTL arbitrage is sold as a "its my pension init" and as an "alternative income investment strategy", but the aim is to sell mortgages, exactly as described in yesterdays BoE consultation thingy.

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The pension grab has had the desired effect by the looks of it, pensioners have taken their cash and invested randomly in BTLs at peak mega bubble prices.

This article now want to make sure there is no crash and people are protected by trying to regulate the BTL lending.

Leaving them at risk. HPC.

Future lending impacts on house prices. If it's tighter, or less demand for it (even HPI heads might soon be asking themselves who'd be a BTLer - and they've got stacks more regulation to come with), then lower prices for those who try to sell, bringing wider values down. Lending down, velocity of credit down... lower prices. Market under more of a siege. And priced out renter-savers...

HPC on both their houses. Or all their properties. Hehe.

Have a listen to the Radio 4 Moneybox Buy to Let episode from last Saturday: http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b0631nq3TBH I'm surprised I haven't seen anything on the forum about it

This will give you an idea of who is paying these ridiculous prices. E.g. late middle aged couple paid £490,000 for a one bedroom flat, with stamp duty and furnishings that must be at least £510,000 outlay. They receive £1300 pcm rent, net after service charge etc. That's 3% yield gross! they seem to be happy about probably losing money month to month on the rent because they are in it for the long haul and the massive capital appreciation that will undoubtedly materialise over the next couple of decades. After all, the lady being interviewed bought her own flat in the area for £107,000 which is now worth £650,000!

There will be no price correction until these types of people have been well and truly scared away from BTL

£490,000 1 bed flat. £1,700pm ... after service charge we get around £1,300pm, which covers the mortgage at the moment. Fixed rate mortgage that goes up in 2 years.

Bought her own flat decades ago.

And I've lived in his area for 25/26 years. When I bought my flat it was £107,000. It went down to £82,000 and the mortgage rate went from 7% to 15%. Now my flat is worth about £650,000 and I feel reasonably confident it's a good investment.

Husband went "Oh" - with a disappointed groan when heard about the Budget, but it's swing and roundabouts and long term investment.

--------------------

^ Remember this when hpcers try to instigate Breakdown 2.0 excuses (like 2008-2011) if and when prices begin to soften. Noticed it last week with a HPCer claiming "It's not buyers fault for paying £500,000 because they can't see it in real money.. if they saw it stacked up in notes they would know." Pathetic excuses for greed.

There are different types of BTL investors.

My parents-in-law would never have bought a BTL flat (indeed they were massively against it) however they had several hundred k sitting in a bank account earning 1%.

If they'd shopped around they'd be getting 2% at best in a savings account (maybe slightly more)

If they'd bought shares they might have gone up, maybe down and with dividends they'd be making maybe 4%. However in living memory the stock market has lost and recovered 50% of its value.

With the flat they bought they get a yield of about 4% (after costs and contingency), price might go up or down (up about £50k so far) in the long term.

Put it this way if they could get 4-5% in a savings account - like was common up to 2008 - there is no way they'd own a BTL flat. But as they want an income in retirement BTL is a sensible way of getting a BTL income.

Now levereged BTL for flats in Bulgaria is another matter...

----------

Except OOers are financing their bet with their earnings, whereas BTLs are capturing a scarce resource and using the extracted rent to service the interest charge arising from their leveraged position. Hence they are exactly the same except for all the very important differences. (And a non-trivial number of BTLers have made the same bet repeatedly, thus capturing lots of housing in the act of taking their massive leveraged punt.)

...It's both owner-occupier buyers (too many instances pushing and falling overthemselves in bidding wars even, and landlords, but many seem to want a landlord-only crash....

BTL is just a point of weakness, cascade effect will take out all reckless borrowers. As it should.

Talk about diversifying.

You get insane HPI and what do they do - basically double their bet!

I would guess the couple are well into their 50s and they think a good thing to do is to take on 400k (that's 8 times the gross/untaxed UK average wage) with 10-15 years left of earnings. And I'm guess that he's the main earner, so that's on a contractor who's earnings may vary somewhat.

...I generally agree. To my mind it looks like it's been constructed in such a way as to make "consumer" BTL a whole new category of lending that - because it's regulated and therefore unlikely to offer any advantages over bog standard residential lending and subsequent consent to let - next to nobody is going to want borrow or lend under. Its only real point of usefulness is that it effectively prevents the vast majority of landlords from crying "consumer protection" when the unregulated mortgages they've used to outbid everybody else with come back to bite them on the ****.

...Come on you lovely buy-to-letters. Let's have those deposits, let's have those prices up and those cash flows squeezed and the let's have ourselves a nice little crash, that sets off a proper crash. Act now before BTL mortgage rates rise. Your last chance to be the greatest fool in twenty year bubble might be slipping through your nasty little hands .

Edited by Venger

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Some people have to come to the realisation it's not just bankers who are the bad.

It's other people.

These BTLers are not the pure innocence. They've had the stomach to try and feed and feast on Generation Rent, and doubeld down into it. Catalyst for HPC. Stomach.

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and there shouldnt be an arbitrage opportunity in a market that is created deliberately by participants in that market.

The BTL arbitrage is sold as a "its my pension init" and as an "alternative income investment strategy", but the aim is to sell mortgages, exactly as described in yesterdays BoE consultation thingy.

How hard is the sell?

These 'innocents' have made their own BTLing decisions in an unregulated market.

They deserve all they have coming to them. Lured in, mostly by their own greed. Up the banks for creating conditions for the Biggest HPC of All Time.

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Leaving them at risk. HPC.

Future lending impacts on house prices. If it's tighter, or less demand for it (even HPI heads might soon be asking themselves who'd be a BTLer - and they've got stacks more regulation to come with), then lower prices for those who try to sell, bringing wider values down. Lending down, velocity of credit down... lower prices. Market under more of a siege. And priced out renter-savers...

HPC on both their houses. Or all their properties. Hehe.

----------

I love you venger :lol:

You are keeping me sane

Edited by TheCountOfNowhere

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It would help me and my children dramatically.

Keeping prices up will help too as ultimately we will leave the UK with our cash and our tax/earnings...when this happens en-masse it will be leaving mumsnetters in a worse position.

Perhaps they can't see past the end of their noses, or think outside of the herd think

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individual mumsnet posters are saying it would be a disaster for them if house prices fell and wouldn't help them anyone :rolleyes:http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2603052-To-think-saying-house-prices-could-crash-if-we-brexit-will-be-a-plus-for-many

Do you mean this ^^^^

The fact they are now discussing it tells me all I need to know about sentiment.

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How hard is the sell?

These 'innocents' have made their own BTLing decisions in an unregulated market.

They deserve all they have coming to them. Lured in, mostly by their own greed. Up the banks for creating conditions for the Biggest HPC of All Time.

missed the point, as usual...my comment is the arbitrage is justified and supported because people beleive it is the road to riches, sunning on the beach in retirement.

That IS the advertising you will find.

But they beleive also the props are there to help THEM.

They are mistaken.

We have seen recently some of this mistakenness is wilful on their part.

You mistake is to suggest my comments are support for the victims of this deception. And deception it is...The BoE document showed the real reasons the BTL market has been supported...For the Bankers.

Mumsnet readers would have a heart attack if they found out, and they are, because they see the effect of saving bankers as a unique business opportunity. And actually, it is (or was)...it is a falsely created arbitrage for the benefit of mortgage sellers who sell the thing as fast as they can. And it is coming to an end...the arbitrage is being closed...

And guess what...the deceived cant believe it....

My comment has nothing whatsoever to do with supporting any player in the market.

Edited by Bloo Loo

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missed the point, as usual...my comment is the arbitrage is justified and supported because people beleive it is the road to riches, sunning on the beach in retirement.

That IS the advertising you will find.

But they beleive also the props are there to help THEM.

They are mistaken.

We have seen recently some of this mistakenness is wilful on their part.

You mistake my comments as support for the victims of this deception. And deception it is...The BoE document showed the real reasons the BTL market has been supported...For the Bankers.

Mumsnet readers would have a heart attack if they found out, because they see the effect of saving bankers as a unique business opportunity. And actually, it is...it is a falsely created arbitrage for the benefit of mortgage sellers who sell the thing as fast as they can. And it is coming to an end...the arbitrage is being closed...

And guess what...the decieved cant believe it....

My comment has nothing whatsoever to do with supporting any player in the market.

Show me some of it.

Also... "sorry, I didn't care".

This is a world with consequences, not fairytale land. Deceived and victims.

On a daily basis for years, the HPIers been showing it off to me.. their logic, and coarsened even further with huge HPI gainz. Selling it to themselves. There are 10s of millions of market participants. Just because LLL is on TV, there is not another bailout coming. 'Media to blame' (2008-00 excuses again to lobby for bailout and hpi protection, to cause more pain to renter-savers). Advertising is advertising. Individual decisions. Not constant victim-squad to protect mad gains HPI/BTLers.

Renter-savers have lives too, and want homeownership... except they have different ideas about values, and about BTLing entirely. Market.

Millions of market participants in this market + BTLers..

Homeowner/BTLer: Then again, the £400K house will be paid off in 25 years and be worth much more than £700K based purely on inflation. As I have said umpteen times, buying a primary residence in a decent area that you plan on owning for the long term is a no brainer.

no brainer” + “plan on owning for the long term

That is the crux of the problem, right there. Just sign and don’t think. That’s why we’re here. It is a brainer, people are better served with critical thinking. But hey, just apply a label such as “bear” to any scepticism so as to avoid having people use their brains. 'Never a bad time to buy.' / "Long term inflation it all way HPI".

----------

Renter-saver: WTF is up with all the math? Have we not all learned by now that math has been proven scientifically false? Math, gravity, physics, etc. have gone the way of alchemy and we have replaced them with new sciences like unicorn fartology, rainbowology, this time is differentology, etc… Come on, you are sounding like my grandpa. “Math”, “percentage”, “economy”, what quaint concepts… Horse, buggy, buggy whip kinda makes me chuckle…

Firstly, I believe yes we have made quite a few preparations (financially speaking) to shelter us from a quite a flood - as have a great many. The fact is that, as history shows those who can see the madness for what it is, and take precautions, tend to survive more than those who do not. Whereas the financial zombies get completely eradicated.

But, as you say, it is indeed well possible that the 'flood' would exceed our expectations and not leave us completely untouched in some form or another (e.g. rising crime rates, etc). But then again are we not already 'touched', harmed and hard done by this ongoing financial madness? I would argue we, and our like, have already (unfairly!) suffered. So IF suffering should come to those who genuinely deserve it? GOOD! It cannot come too soon.

Using the fear tactic that you espouse (i.e. you too will get swept up in the flood) doesn't hold sway with me anymore.

What are you? Man or Mouse?

It has been said, in many different ways, in respect of personal liberty and freedom that it isn't 'free' - it has to, from time to time, be paid for in toil and blood. The same such applies to ensuring restoration of financial sanity to the world. IF I have to suffer some (more than already) to ensure a better world for my children and their children than I gladly do so. What are you prepared to do?!

These personal stories of people, in this day and age, having to resort to living in vans utterly disgusts me with the 'system' and TPTB. Anyone who is not similarly disgusted simply does not grasp the significance.

If it doesn't you then I put it to you that you have started to lose some crucial essence of your decency and humanity.

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Do you mean this ^^^^

The fact they are now discussing it tells me all I need to know about sentiment.

Well they do sound a bit 2006. So maybe we are at the peak again.

Thing is all these mums seem very happy for prices to stay high, and their children never own their own home and spend all their life giving 50-60% of their wages to landlords.

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Show me some of it.

Also... "sorry, I didn't care".

This is a world with consequences, not fairytale land. Deceived and victims.

On a daily basis for years, the HPIers been showing it off to me.. their logic, and coarsened even further with huge HPI gainz. Selling it to themselves. There are 10s of millions of market participants. Just because LLL is on TV, there is not another bailout coming. 'Media to blame' (2008-00 excuses again to lobby for bailout and hpi protection, to cause more pain to renter-savers). Advertising is advertising. Individual decisions. Not constant victim-squad to protect mad gains HPI/BTLers.

Renter-savers have lives too, and want homeownership... except they have different ideas about values, and about BTLing entirely. Market.

You know, you are almost as bad as Damik in your zealotry.. What you feel about a situation is not the whole picture.

Me trying to see the whole picture is NOT supporting BTL...I have NEVER supported BTL, and I wish to see an end to the Arbitrage between OO and BTLs competing for the same properties.

You wanted a picture of the good life offered by BTL?

google it. Here is the first one in my list happy professional showing a delighted couple of investors their future.

http://uk.virginmoney.com/virgin/mortgages/buy-to-let/?utm_campaign=BTL&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=Cj0KEQjw8u23BRCg6YnzmJmPqYgBEiQALf_Xzd5p7Pa8_aKQz9bRrrpZLmCA-K0rjQLXqEM8l8tQrbkaAgo18P8HAQ

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