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Byron

The Dublin Easter Rising

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Just watching it on TV

Very moving.

Then I realised that virtually all the troubles in this World have,

Poets, Priests, Politicians or teachers behind them.

If only this unholy cabal would leave proper people alone, we would get on just fine.

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I think gran did it. She came from Ireland. She got on with everyone and made nice cakes! It's amazing how a "cause" is not important!

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Watched a decent BBC show on it - presented by that Mrs Brown's boys bloke.

I expected it to be horrendous but was actually really interesting. Worth catching up on I player if you are interested.

I was quite surprised how much sympathy there was for the British soldiers who were dumped there after being told they were being shipped off elsewhere. And many ended up dying in the week of mayhem.

I don't think it was faux sympathy either. You don't get the same impression if anti British hatred that you see in many NI places.

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I was going to add Lawyers, until I realised that so many become politicians anyway.

Perhaps it should be a notifiable disease.

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Just watching it on TV

Very moving.

Then I realised that virtually all the troubles in this World have,

Poets, Priests, Politicians or teachers behind them.

If only this unholy cabal would leave proper people alone, we would get on just fine.

There is a tendency for people to forget that Britain was heavily involved in the First World War when the rising occurred. Many viewed those involved in the Irish rebellion as tantamount to traitors siding with the Kaisar's Germany (the Germans did make a number of unsuccessful attempts to supply the uprising with weapons). The rebels actually did not enjoy that much popular support at the time of the insurrection most of that arose later due to the stupid and brutal way it was suppressed particularly with the punishments dished out afterwards (stupid and brutal seemingly being the British governments default position down the years to Irish issues). Though it seems like a terrible tragedy many,many more Irishmen were killed on the western front in 1916 than in Ireland during the rising. The aftermath of the doomed rebellion saw a huge increase in Republican sentiment in Ireland which enabled Sinn Fein to win most of the Irish seats in the UK General Election of 1918. Ironically it was the ballot box and the extension of the franchise in 1918 not the gun that ultimately created the Irish Free state.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_general_election,_1918

Sadly the gun soon came back to the fore as Ireland descended into a Civil War between different Republican factions. More people died in that conflict than the Easter Rising.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_and_World_War_I

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Yep - learnt watching that programme that when they started and took over the post office - locals were booing them and chucking stones at the building.

Even during the fighting many locals in the worst affected areas went out to take in woukded British soldiers and put themself in the way of rebel fire to calm the killing. Changed my view on the whole thing.

As already noted above - the punishments dished out were the real 'winner' for those wanting a republic. The actual uprising was seen by most as a negative thing.

Interesting stories.

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Worth noting that though the Easter Rising is being commemorated today on Easter Sunday it actually took place between 24-29 April 1916 so the true centenary is a month away. Ironically the uprising coincided with the Battle of Hulluch near Loos on 27 April 1916 which saw the Irish 16 Division made up of largely Catholic volunteers suffer nearly 500 casualties in a German gas attack.

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I think gran did it. She came from Ireland. She got on with everyone and made nice cakes! It's amazing how a "cause" is not important!

My Gran too. She made great soda bread, potato scones and Eve's pudding. I have the recipe notebook she started when she married in 1925. Nothing is measured precisely. It's a handful of this, a pinch of that...no good for me - I'm a chemist's daughter!!!

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My Gran too. She made great soda bread, potato scones and Eve's pudding. I have the recipe notebook she started when she married in 1925. Nothing is measured precisely. It's a handful of this, a pinch of that...no good for me - I'm a chemist's daughter!!!

My grandmother was Irish and she was a terrible cook.

I used to dread eating there as a kid.

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It's extremely odd when we look at these events, since most people I know are partly Irish anyway, including my mate John, whos dad was from Jamaica. Irish mom though! -_-

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My Gran too. She made great soda bread, potato scones and Eve's pudding. I have the recipe notebook she started when she married in 1925. Nothing is measured precisely. It's a handful of this, a pinch of that...no good for me - I'm a chemist's daughter!!!

Oo eve's pudding.Not had that for a long time.

I enjoy the Nigel Slater style of cooking. Throw stuff in until it looks right. :)

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Oo eve's pudding.Not had that for a long time.

I enjoy the Nigel Slater style of cooking. Throw stuff in until it looks right. :)

I'd love to lose control enough to do that. My dad was a research chemist and I was taught to measure everything. Even salt!

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It's extremely odd when we look at these events, since most people I know are partly Irish anyway, including my mate John, whos dad was from Jamaica. Irish mom though! -_-

It sometimes feels that I'm the only fully English person around (along with family members) who doesn't have some Celtic blood in them. Have noticed that Americans too love to have some Irish connection in their family history.

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It sometimes feels that I'm the only fully English person around (along with family members) who doesn't have some Celtic blood in them. Have noticed that Americans too love to have some Irish connection in their family history.

Americans can be sometimes deluded into thinking they are "Irish".

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It sometimes feels that I'm the only fully English person around (along with family members) who doesn't have some Celtic blood in them. Have noticed that Americans too love to have some Irish connection in their family history.

.

I would not worry. The only benefit I have derived from my ancestral connection with Ireland is that I am genetically immune to all the blarney, myths and romance that many people seem to succumb to when discussing the place, it's history and its culture.

With regard to the Easter Rising I happen to think most of the people died pointlessly since the Great War made Irish Independence in some form almost a certainty particularly in view of the electoral reforms and other changes introduced by the British government in 1918 at the end of the conflict. Whisper it quietly but you might argue that Irish liberty was won as much on the western front as the streets of Dublin.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representation_of_the_People_Act_1918

Anyway to see how confusing it can all get people should read about Martin Doyle who won a Military Medal and Victoria Cross in the British Army on the western front then fought for the IRA before serving in the army of the Irish Free State. Ironically, when he died he chose to be buried in his British army uniform in the British Military Cemetery at Grangegorman which is where some of the British soldiers killed in the Easter Rising also have their graves

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/an-irishman-s-diary-on-martin-doyle-the-victoria-cross-winner-who-joined-the-ira-1.2423249

In Irish history nothing is quite as straightforward as it first seems.

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It seems that the road to independence was well on it's way by 1916 and only delayed by the Great War. Moves were already afoot to allow home rule for Ireland.

I wonder if the uprising was a significant factor in the Ulster counties later decision to remain in the UK. Perhaps, without the violence, Ireland would have been independent and united by the end of the 1920's.

The uprising was a screw up by both the Irish and the British.

My ancestry is English, Irish and Scottish, BTW. I have no axe to grind.

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My grandfather joined up in 1915 under age to fight the 'Hun'. Unfortunately, he was sent to Ireland to help quell the rising. As a result, he hated the Irish till his dying day, despite marrying an Irishwoman, who had been brought to Scotland aged about 2. My mother cried when my son was sent to N.I. in 1993 to quell the rising. Plus ça change...

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My grandfather joined up in 1915 under age to fight the 'Hun'. Unfortunately, he was sent to Ireland to help quell the rising. As a result, he hated the Irish till his dying day, despite marrying an Irishwoman, who had been brought to Scotland aged about 2. My mother cried when my son was sent to N.I. in 1993 to quell the rising. Plus ça change...

To be fair, some Irish hate other irish. Which has been the cause of the odd spat now and then.

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It should be noted that the Irish famine largely occurred under a Whig government. When the potato crop originally failed in 1846 Robert Peels Tory administration took steps to relieve the crisis which were relatively successful. It was when Lord John Russell's laissez faire Whig administration got into office that the Irish were left to starve. Sir Charles Trevelyan who was an ideological believer in the free market that bears a lot of the responsibility for why more than a million Irish people died in the famine and a further 1 million had to emigrate. It was a crime against humanity comparable to anything Stalin did in the Ukraine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Charles_Trevelyan,_1st_Baronet

Mark you it is not as though existence was that great in English industrial towns like Manchester in the 1840s where life expectancy was as low as it had been at any time since the Black Death.

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It should be noted that the Irish famine largely occurred under a Whig government. When the potato crop originally failed in 1846 Robert Peels Tory administration took steps to relieve the crisis which were relatively successful. It was when Lord John Russell's laissez faire Whig administration got into office that the Irish were left to starve. Sir Charles Trevelyan who was an ideological believer in the free market that bears a lot of the responsibility for why more than a million Irish people died in the famine and a further 1 million had to emigrate. It was a crime against humanity comparable to anything Stalin did in the Ukraine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Charles_Trevelyan,_1st_Baronet

Mark you it is not as though existence was that great in English industrial towns like Manchester in the 1840s where life expectancy was as low as it had been at any time since the Black Death.

My understanding of English complicity was using the army to escort tonnes of butter and meat to the ports from the estates of absent irish aristocracy

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And Britain was going through an economic crash and potato blight affected things badly on mainland Europe as well, though with no perfect storm conditions of Europeans having near total dependency on practically a single type of potato crop like the tenants of Ireland did. A very unfortunate catastrophe exacerbated by callous incompetence but not an evil plot. And what about the private charity, even if it was a band aide like it always was?

EDIT - Also the typical Irish peasant until the famine hit was taller, fitter and healthier than the average Manchester slum dweller who lived in conditions as bad as anytime in the Medieval era.

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And Britain was going through an economic crash and potato blight affected things badly on mainland Europe as well, though with no perfect storm conditions of Europeans having near total dependency on practically a single type of potato crop like the tenants of Ireland did. A very unfortunate catastrophe exacerbated by callous incompetence but not an evil plot. And what about the private charity, even if it was a band aide like it always was?

EDIT - Also the typical Irish peasant until the famine hit was taller, fitter and healthier than the average Manchester slum dweller who lived in conditions as bad as anytime in the Medieval era.

..

Britain had the largest Empire in the World and the biggest navy so if any power was in a position to relieve the famine in Ireland it could have done so.

The Irish rural economy was faced with the issue that by the mid 19th century it was trying to support a rising population. However, it was hardly unique in that respect and the population of Ireland did not grow any more in percentage terms in that period than the population of England. So the question has to be asked why such a greater proportion of the population died of disease and starvation in one country rather than the other in that period. Obviously Ireland's problems were exacerbated by reliance of many small holders and landless rural workers on a single crop, the Irish Lumper, but earlier potato crop failures (and there had been a fair few) did not result in mass starvation so the suspicion is that government inertia in the late 1840s was part of a deliberate policy. Moreover despite demographic pressures Ireland was exporting more food than it imported over most of the early 19th century so there was still a net agricultural surplus even during the famine years. Indeed, the very fact that the Irish were generally considered to be physically robust as a people suggests that under nourishment was not their normal state.

Bizarrely at the time of the famine relief was denied to those who rented even fairly small areas of land who were expected to feed themselves even though their crops had failed. Thus you had the crazy situation of people having to pauperise themselves and abandon production just to eat.

To mitigate the crisis the government could have assisted emigration which is the route taken by those peasants with enough money to afford passage but again it did almost nothing until far too late.

The one area where it seems the British government was prepared to abandon laissez faire and become interventionist was in using the state's power to protect landlords and their flow of rents. In fact landowners showed no signs that they wanted to share in the economic consequences of a crash in crop production. Basically the producers bore all the risks of the crisis while those who extracted the profit from their investment in time and labour took none.

The main unintended benefit claimed for the famine is that it enabled land holdings to be rationalized and farmed more efficiently. Unfortunately studies don't really support that argument. Between 1860 and 1911 tillage was reduced by about 50% in Ireland and the production of crops such as potatoes, oats and other crops etc dropped in response. By the end of the 19th century Ireland was a food importer of most agricultural staples with its farming increasingly geared to meat and dairy products for export.

It has to be said that losing 20% of a country's population to either starvation, sickness or flight in less than 5 years looks a bit more than carelessness. In some areas such as around Cappamore in County Limerick up to half the population simply disappeared.

And of course Ireland was not the only place where a mixture of inertia, incompetence and economic ideology by British administrators left the peasants to starve in the 19th century as there were also a number of devastating famines in India such as that of 1876-1877. What did make Ireland unique was that it was not some distant colony. Instead, since the 1801 Act of Union it was actually part of the British state. Hardly surprising that by the early 20th Century so many Irish people wanted out of a national entity that left its own citizens to starve.

Anyway if anyone wants to see what the evils of a rentier economy can do the Ireland in the 1840s is the place to look.

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