warpig Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 OK I understand. Somewhere between 1 and 2. The conclusion I came to was Britain was far more likely to be blackmailed in to staying because the conditions of our exit could be considered EU reparations... I wasn't sure what you meant by "As I said, it took a while to pull all the information together and I agreed in the end, it is a concern." Re the rule change March 2017, is your position 1 or 2? 1. It means a member state like us cannot leave unless the other states agree to let us. 2. You are just concerned that negotiations about anything will be harder for us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AThirdWay Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 We can't sort the country out whilst we're in the EU. Why do you keep saying that? Yes we can. Why do you refuse to address the points I have made? We have NEVER determined the direction of our country, and exposing the best country in the world to political upheaval doesn't make sense.....discuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpig Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 The risk for Britain is in staying in the EU, not leaving. The risk for the EU is in Britain leaving, it will cause contagion. The political and economic upheaval will happen irrespective of BREXIT, The EU is in dismal economic decline the same as the rest of the world, why on Earth would you want to be part of a bigger mess. We should leave, pull up the drawbridge and start to sort this mess out. Apologies. It appears my grammar was so atrociously bad that you were unable to address my point. Let me put it another way.... Out of all the countries you have lived in across the globe, you have came to the conclusion that the UK is the best (I assume your living in Scotland then?). You now want to risk the BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, in your opinion, by exposing it to massive political upheaval. That is nonsensical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/bra-tycoon-michelle-mone-working-7214054 I see that a as way forward a working class girl made good has anyone ever voted anyone into the house of Lords ? Edited March 10, 2016 by long time lurking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AThirdWay Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Ah i see so that's all going to change if we stay in the EU ? i know it`s not going to change if we leave BTW ECB just lowered interest rates to 0% and increased QE from £60 bil to £80 bil per month You misunderstand me. I don't actively support the EU as such. As you point out, they are every bit in thrall to the money as the Westminster/The City. However, EU legislation relating to workers rights or consumer safety, for example, would never be implemented, and maintained, by a Westminster government. In my opinion, the EU has done more for the Scottish voter than Westminster. It isn't much, but it's enough to sway my vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Yes we can. Why do you refuse to address the points I have made? We have NEVER determined the direction of our country,and exposing the best country in the world to political upheaval doesn't make sense.....discuss. So who have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AThirdWay Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 I see that a as way forward a working class girl made good has anyone ever voted anyone into the house of Lords ? I'm afraid I see it as the elevation of a hypocrite. No the population of the UK has never voted for a single member of the 'overseers' of UK legislation. That is my point. House of Lords, European Commission, why attack one and not the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AThirdWay Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 So who have Are you arguing that if we are all caged, we are all free? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 You misunderstand me. I don't actively support the EU as such. As you point out, they are every bit in thrall to the money as the Westminster/The City. However, EU legislation relating to workers rights or consumer safety, for example, would never be implemented, and maintained, by a Westminster government. In my opinion, the EU has done more for the Scottish voter than Westminster. It isn't much, but it's enough to sway my vote. I see nothing for workers rights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Are you arguing that if we are all caged, we are all free? Nope you stated we have never had a say so i assumed you must know who had the say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AThirdWay Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 I see nothing for workers rights http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=157 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_labour_law http://www.londonchamber.co.uk/docimages/1154.pdf And finally, what was Call-Me-Dave moaning about then? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11732668/david-cameron-working-time-directive-eu-referendum.html Sorry, gotta go. It's been fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 I'm afraid I see it as the elevation of a hypocrite. No the population of the UK has never voted for a single member of the 'overseers' of UK legislation. That is my point. House of Lords, European Commission, why attack one and not the other? The EU commission only has a mandate to the EU as a whole (read the stronger economic countries ours would probably be included in that group ) The lords work for the wellbeing of the UK What the EU have forced upon the weaker countries of late is criminal all to further the VI`s of the stronger countries and the people who made these decisions are unelected ....this is the major concern for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AThirdWay Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Nope you stated we have never had a say so i assumed you must know who had the say Ah, one more post then... Sorry, I thought you were asking which countries population has had a say in the past. The 1% have the say on how this country is run. Always have done, always will, unless we do something about it. http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30875633 I'm encouraged by the refusal of the Yanks to vote for the Republican political elite, the refusal of the labour party to elect the political norm and the Scottish voters for not returning to political apathy after the referendum, but it seems slightly hypocritical to advocate change in our relationship with the EU before we've addressed the problems in our own country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AThirdWay Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 The EU commission only has a mandate to the EU as a whole (read the stronger economic countries ours would probably be included in that group ) The lords work for the wellbeing of the UK What the EU have forced upon the weaker countries of late is criminal all to further the VI`s of the stronger countries and the people who made these decisions are unelected ....this is the major concern for me No problem with your first sentence, the second is HIGHLY debatable, and I don't see how the UK leaving the EU would change the third? Sorry, I'm out of here for tonight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=157 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_labour_law http://www.londonchamber.co.uk/docimages/1154.pdf And finally, what was Call-Me-Dave moaning about then? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11732668/david-cameron-working-time-directive-eu-referendum.html Sorry, gotta go. It's been fun http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=157 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_labour_law http://www.londonchamber.co.uk/docimages/1154.pdf And finally, what was Call-Me-Dave moaning about then? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11732668/david-cameron-working-time-directive-eu-referendum.html Sorry, gotta go. It's been fun They all look good on paper but they are not worth the paper they are written on All but health and safety are written out via the contract of work an employee must sign Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) Ah, one more post then... Sorry, I thought you were asking which countries population has had a say in the past. The 1% have the say on how this country is run. Always have done, always will, unless we do something about it. http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30875633 I'm encouraged by the refusal of the Yanks to vote for the Republican political elite, the refusal of the labour party to elect the political norm and the Scottish voters for not returning to political apathy after the referendum, but it seems slightly hypocritical to advocate change in our relationship with the EU before we've addressed the problems in our own country? Well the mystical overlords will never be voted out anywhere in the world will they Edited March 10, 2016 by long time lurking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 No problem with your first sentence, the second is HIGHLY debatable, and I don't see how the UK leaving the EU would change the third? Sorry, I'm out of here for tonight Nope it would not, but not being part of a club like that is preferable to belonging to it i never said it would change the situation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voldemort Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 I will almost certainly be voting out. I can rationalise it, but it just comes down to a gut feeling that the EU style ever-larger government will lead to a dystopian illiberal future. It's not because I dislike what they have done - I think they have made many sensible laws - it's because I don't trust that they will continue to be benign, and I think when they start to turn on the people, we won't be able to vote them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 You misunderstand me. I don't actively support the EU as such. As you point out, they are every bit in thrall to the money as the Westminster/The City. However, EU legislation relating to workers rights or consumer safety, for example, would never be implemented, and maintained, by a Westminster government So you're ok with technocracy so long as it does things you approve of? That strikes me as an incredibly short sighted view. And i don't understand how people can approve of a democratic government being overruled by an unelected bureaucracy and thinking this is a good thing. Democracy is the worst system aside from all the others and such. Unfortunately Europe as a whole has never really seemed to get that with the exception of the UK. And perhaps nowadays not even the UK gets it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpig Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 The most efficient way to deal with a mess, is to get rid of the biggest mess first and that certainly isn't London it's Brussels. Not only is it a mess, they're non-elected officials, so they go first. We do determine the direction of our country, we always have apart from when the EU morphed from a trade agreement in to some political and economic behemoth. You seem to have a problem with politics in general and as such you should vote to rid yourself of this extra layer of bureaucratic nonsense that we didn't sign up to. Yes we can. Why do you refuse to address the points I have made? We have NEVER determined the direction of our country, and exposing the best country in the world to political upheaval doesn't make sense.....discuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 And the House of Lords is utterly irrelevant. Compare a revising chamber which basically does skut work that the MPs can't be bothered to deal with with a European Commission wielding executive power. Comparing British democracy unfavourably with the EU technocracy is a sick joke tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpig Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 Yes this is about the size of it. The irony is we can't vote them out now... it's because I don't trust that they will continue to be benign, and I think when they start to turn on the people, we won't be able to vote them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpig Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 I can't believe there's 25 people who think being in the EU is a good idea. I wonder what their angle is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repetitive bleats Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) All the same but the ones in westminster are democratically elected they are voted in and they can be voted out it`s not perfect but it`s a million miles better than European commissioners version of democracy Last time around were we ruled by Peter Mandelson (by proxy) and then Gordon Brown. Neither of whom were voted in as PM. This time around we are ruled by a bunch of old etonians who said one thing in their manifesto and are doing precisely the opposite in power. Is there anything we can do about it? Nope. It's the illusion of democracy - and makes no difference to me if it's the EU or our own lot that are turning us over. However the downsides that I listed earlier are real reasons, I believe, to not bin off the EU because we are in love with the impossible dream of deciding our own fate. Edited March 10, 2016 by repetitive bleats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Last time around we we ruled by Peter Mandelson (by proxy) and then Gordon Brown. Neither of whom were voted in as PM. This time around we are ruled by a bunch of old etonians who said one thing in their manifesto and are doing precisely the opposite in power. Is there anything we can do about it? Nope. It's the illusion of democracy - and makes no difference to me if it's the EU or our own lot that are turning us over. However the downsides that I listed earlier are real reasons, I believe, to not bin off the EU because we are in love with the impossible dream of deciding our own fate. Maybe so but we all had a chance to vote ,our system is not perfect (first past the post ) but we have a post and we have a chance to vote for the politicians who stand as candidates we can also vote for which candidate stands for the parties of one`s choosing Is there anything we can do about it? Nope. Of course there is, there will be another vote in a few years vote them out you have no chance of doing so with the EU You detest what we have because you have no say but you are happy to vote for much more of the same ?because of economic arguments that are all hypothetical from both sides All the same the sky will fall in arguments were had when the country was deciding on whether to use the euro or stick with the pound what happen sweet fa nothing changed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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