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English Housing Survey

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Please don't hold back on the cod-psychoanalysis on my account. With your 85 posts in 90 months it is good to see that we have a subject which has captured your imagination, if not your attention. In my post (and naturally enough in your quote of it also) I specifically identify "mortgage prisoners with big interest-only liar loans that they'll never pay off" as renting from the bank. In conflating that group with "folks with mortgages" you betray an inclination to leap before you look, though I wouldn't propose to offer any analysis of how your actions were informed by your circumstances or any psychological scars you carry. The attitude of overly-aggressively jumping on other commenters is what has already changed what were once valuable internet forums to desolate waste grounds. (e.g. many on Reddit - especially re SERIAL, Yahoo in general). I find much discussion on this site civil and informed, but the comments which impugn others by asserting that they are driven by resentment, jealousy, anger offer very little to the community.*

Your interesting post continues. Having decided that my motivation is a chip on my shoulder you then explain to me that whilst some owner-occupiers consider themselves superior to me as a lowly renter, I shouldn't worry, (hence implying that I was worrying). And then finally, just in case there was any doubt regarding how disturbed, thick and ignorant you are willing to suppose that I am, you explain to me the difference between renting and owning. Thanks - I really appreciate that. Very constructive. You should post more.

* You see what I did there? Fixed your typos too, because I am a nice guy. 100% chip-free. I still haven't bothered to look up what SERIAL is ;)

I was not impugning your motivation, but suggesting how your tone and text might be interpreted by others - especially those less sympathetic to your cause. I do not think it helps the arguments of those who generally have sympathy with the views of most on this site.
As you correctly point out, I do not spend as much time on this forum as many others. However, I am happy to let other readers judge whether anyone in this particular dialogue is demonstrating "an attitude of overly-aggressively jumping on other commenters." That is something I try not to do.

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I was not impugning your motivation, but suggesting how your tone and text might be interpreted by others - especially those less sympathetic to your cause. I do not think it helps the arguments of those who generally have sympathy with the views of most on this site.

Look, you made an asinine post where you mixed up the group that is in common parlance mortgage prisoners (high-LTV interest-only liar loan, no repayment plan) with a group you identify as "folks with mortgages". When you get fairly politely called out on it, you don't wear it, you just double down on your completely spurious assertion that there is an issue with my "tone and text", (as if the tone exists separate to the text - are you reading my post out loud to yourself in an angry, bitter voice? :rolleyes: FFS).

Thus you are trolling. You're adding nothing to the discussion at hand and repeatedly posting derogatory assertions about another poster's contributions, hence your posting is likely to be disruptive. This is the definition of trolling - disruptive posting.

As you correctly point out, I do not spend as much time on this forum as many others. However, I am happy to let other readers judge whether anyone in this particular dialogue is demonstrating "an attitude of overly-aggressively jumping on other commenters." That is something I try not to do.

Yeah, but you've only made seven posts since 31 July 2015 and three of them have been telling other people how to post. Perhaps if your plan is to police the rest of us for "text and tone" you ought to start reading our posts and responding to their actual contents, and when you don't do that and get called out, maybe your go to tactic should be humility not pompous umbrage.

You know, just because someone (Confusion of VIs) posts something other than 'HPC is happening next week' does not make them a troll or BTL'er. The attitude of overly-aggressively jumping on other commenters is what has already changed what were once valuable internet forums to desolate waste grounds. (e.g. many on Redditt - especially re SERIAL, Yahoo in general).

I find much discussion on this site civili and informed, but the comments which appear to be driven by resentment, jealousy, anger offer very little to the community.

Do you actually have any thoughts on the English Housing Survey or is your focus purely keeping the rest of us in line and helping "the arguments of those who generally have sympathy with the views of most on this site"? (All the talk of a cause is frightening me a bit too BTW.)

The thing that actually puzzles me is this; I do spend quite a lot of time reading and posting on this forum (not as much as I'd like, I'm thinking about getting into BTL to free up more time for posting rabid hatred of all things BTL) and not only do I feel absolutely no rancour towards owner-occupiers, mortgaged or otherwise, but I don't think that there is much rancour towards them on the boards at all and I know full well that many of the posters that I esteem either own outright or are mortgaged owner-occupiers. Hence your analysis is a million miles off. Their is no jealousy or anger directed at mortgaged owner-occupiers in the text and none in the sub-text. It exists in your imagination and only in your imagination and thus what requires explanation is why you see rancour where there is none.

Now, let me show you how this works. I could clutch at some straws and say that you came back from the US in 2008 and paid some ridiculous boom price for a house, financing with a dirty great interest-only mortgage which you are massively bitter about and hence you misread my post and tip into me because you feel that you've been stitched up by the situation every bit as much as some bitter renter. That could be exactly right or completely wrong. However you respond will not resolve the matter because on the internet as an 86 post count mystery man you can say what you want but it doesn't make it true. However, such speculation does not advance the argument on the thread and runs the risk of irritating you, hence it would be (or rather is ;)) trolling, thus what is best is to leave the question of people's motivations and the presence or absence of chips on their shoulders alone. It is bad board etiquette. Argue the facts, let the moderators hold the line on issues of "text and tone", report any posting that crosses the line as you perceive it.

Edited by Idlewild

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You'd have to look at the EHS methodology.

There's a paper on the methodology of the 2011-12 update here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/211301/Survey_Overview_and_Methodology.pdf

I can't find anything in it, or in the Owner occupiers, recent first time buyers and second homes dataset here https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/owner-occupiers-recent-first-time-buyers-and-second-homes that gives any clue about overseas buyers.

Edit: damned formatting

Edited by Snugglybear

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It's the householders being surveyed, hence properties belonging to overseas investors will likely show up in the PRS figures and people who have moved to Britain and who have bought a home to live in will show up as owner occupiers. The methodology isn't clear about how it classifies unoccupied property but it would be hard to see how they could classify it as owner-occupied if it's unoccupied.

I think the original joke was pretty much based on BTL dominated landlord fora claims that the PRS is expanding solely because of immigration and supply issues, and that it has nothing to do with the differences between unregulated interest-only BTL loans that are currently paid out of pre-tax income and regulated repayment homeowner mortgages that have to be paid for out of post-tax income, and so was based on the premise that immigration probably hasn't declined and doesn't necessarily dictate tenure.

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I was not impugning your motivation, but suggesting how your tone and text might be interpreted by others - especially those less sympathetic to your cause.

Here we don't all have to post with a view of trying to convince those who have a 'less than sympathetic' view of renter-savers, or that values can correction, in order for markets to play out.

It's a market full of different positions. I've watched one housing group take the nicey-nicey approach trying to convince the forever HPIers.... for so many years. It never got them anywhere.

We can discuss the market, our positions in it, our hopes and views and projections, without being concerned our posts might annoy forever HPIers/BTLers who are observing.

It's a forum called HousePriceCrash. We don't need to win HPIers/BTLers understanding and approval for markets to play out.

One core-voting Daddy, who felt HPC can't happen because 'authorities won't let it happen', bought a BTL at crazy high price just a few days before budget and Clause 24. Followed up in Autumn Statement by stamp duty hike for BTLers.

An existing paradigm is seldom dispelled by evidence alone. As Keith Thomas has written, "Such systems of belief possess a resilience which makes them virtually immune to external argument." A people whose culture grossly misinterprets certain facts will not necessarily reason their way to a more encompassing worldview until forced to do so by the brunt of economic necessity or military defeat. Reason does not alter values.

Things are turning renter-savers way, and left many BTLers reeling. Forecasting their own bankruptcy and financial oblivion.

My rancour is reserved for the excuse-givers who believe those who buy/own should have a right of protection from brunt of market changes, over and above those they outbid (renter-savers). We all want a house, and if you buy one, take ownership of your own decision and price you chose to pay.

And for those who just a short while ago were claiming it's a massive HPI+++++ future ("buy now or miss out forever"), who after C24 and Stamp Duty hike are claiming those who bought/buy are innocents who've been tricked. Also for a few trolls.

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This thread deserved longer legs. Not the trolling bit, the EHS bit.

But if the 2013-14 figures were dodgy, it'll take a few years to come out in the wash. Surely the amount of new build and help to buy is having NO meaningful effects on these rates.

Edited by 24 year mortgage 8itch

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This thread deserved longer legs. Not the trolling bit, the EHS bit.

But if the 2013-14 figures were dodgy, it'll take a few years to come out in the wash. Surely the amount of new build and help to buy is having NO meaningful effects on these rates.

I certainly think this could have deserved a bit more attention, especially given BTL landlords have been claiming that rents have been rising as a result of the mid-year Summer Budget:

While social rents increased between 2013-14 and 2014-15, private rents remained stable. Although this was not the case in London.

  • In 2014-15, the average (mean) rent (excluding services but including Housing Benefit) for households in the social sector was £99 compared with £179 per week in the private rented sector.
  • For social renters, average rents increased between 2013-14 and 2014-15, from £94 to £99. Average private rents were unchanged.
  • While private rents did not increase between 2013-14 and 2014-15 at the national level, in London there was a £17 per week increase, from an average of £281 per week to £298 per week.

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On 2/22/2016 at 8:28 PM, Bland Unsight said:

Look, you made an asinine post where you mixed up the group that is in common parlance mortgage prisoners (high-LTV interest-only liar loan, no repayment plan) with a group you identify as "folks with mortgages". When you get fairly politely called out on it, you don't wear it, you just double down on your completely spurious assertion that there is an issue with my "tone and text", (as if the tone exists separate to the text - are you reading my post out loud to yourself in an angry, bitter voice? :rolleyes: FFS).

Thus you are trolling. You're adding nothing to the discussion at hand and repeatedly posting derogatory assertions about another poster's contributions, hence your posting is likely to be disruptive. This is the definition of trolling - disruptive posting.

On 2/22/2016 at 7:29 PM, bearishonhouses said:

As you correctly point out, I do not spend as much time on this forum as many others. However, I am happy to let other readers judge whether anyone in this particular dialogue is demonstrating "an attitude of overly-aggressively jumping on other commenters." That is something I try not to do.

Yeah, but you've only made seven posts since 31 July 2015 and three of them have been telling other people how to post.  Perhaps if your plan is to police the rest of us for "text and tone" you ought to start reading our posts and responding to their actual contents, and when you don't do that and get called out, maybe your go to tactic should be humility not pompous umbrage.

On 7/31/2015 at 1:33 PM, bearishonhouses said:

You know, just because someone (Confusion of VIs) posts something other than 'HPC is happening next week' does not make them a troll or BTL'er. The attitude of overly-aggressively jumping on other commenters is what has already changed what were once valuable internet forums to desolate waste grounds. (e.g. many on Redditt - especially re SERIAL, Yahoo in general).

I find much discussion on this site civili and informed, but the comments which appear to be driven by resentment, jealousy, anger offer very little to the community.

Do you actually have any thoughts on the English Housing Survey or is your focus purely keeping the rest of us in line and helping "the arguments of those who generally have sympathy with the views of most on this site"? (All the talk of a cause is frightening me a bit too BTW.)

The thing that actually puzzles me is this; I do spend quite a lot of time reading and posting on this forum (not as much as I'd like, I'm thinking about getting into BTL to free up more time for posting rabid hatred of all things BTL) and not only do I feel absolutely no rancour towards owner-occupiers, mortgaged or otherwise, but I don't think that there is much rancour towards them on the boards at all and I know full well that many of the posters that I esteem either own outright or are mortgaged owner-occupiers. Hence your analysis is a million miles off.  Their is no jealousy or anger directed at mortgaged owner-occupiers in the text and none in the sub-text. It exists in your imagination and only in your imagination and thus what requires explanation is why you see rancour where there is none.

Lol, and exactly so.  Market only for me.

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  • 240 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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