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What Sort Of Person Wants To Leave The Eu?


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...and the young generally vote for big spending parties who want to mortgage off more of their futures more quickly. Go figure, people vote against their own interests.

Its also a pretty myopic way to translate voter trends. Suffice to say incredibly insulting. Some of the most intelligence people I know never went to university. Just because we shove 50% or whatever into university now, compared to 20% or so a generation ago, it doesnt make todays generation magically more intelligent. Brainwashed in some cases, yes. Free of life experience outside of the academic echo chamber, yes. Can't say I ever gained any 'wisdom' attending university. If anything I've spent the last 10 years trying to unlearn the ******** I was 'taught' there. :lol:

(ie business and economics degree, graduated in 2006, any mention of debt and the lecturers quickly wanted to move on)

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...and the young generally vote for big spending parties who want to mortgage off more of their futures more quickly. Go figure, people vote against their own interests.

Its also a pretty myopic way to translate voter trends. Suffice to say incredibly insulting. Some of the most intelligence people I know never went to university. Just because we shove 50% or whatever into university now, compared to 20% or so a generation ago, it doesnt make todays generation magically more intelligent. Brainwashed in some cases, yes. Free of life experience outside of the academic echo chamber, yes. Can't say I ever gained any 'wisdom' attending university. If anything I've spent the last 10 years trying to unlearn the ******** I was 'taught' there. :lol:

(ie business and economics degree, graduated in 2006, any mention of debt and the lecturers quickly wanted to move on)

100%

I have a Bsc and Masters yet find people started learning when they leave school (that is what Uni is really)

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The only personal reason to stay in the EU for me is it gives more options for an easier escape plan.

Otherwise I'd happily decentralise down to the level of an individual. I have no time for anyone telling me what I can and can't do, and there's pretty much nothing that I cannot cope with or sort out myself.

So I'm torn. On one hand I've *never* believed in borders at all - I should be free to roam as the urge takes me, and I'd be hypocritical to not apply the same rights to anyone else. On the other hand, ridiculous large scale centralised laws, control and banking are terrifying and increasingly destroy those freedoms and put obstacles in the way of anyone trying to live as an individual.

Also I don't think it matters because society is so full of apathy and avarice regardless. It's equally likely to go to wrong either way.

So it's a liberalism/neo-liberalism thing ?

That's illuminating because the population have been pumped with eu mmigration scare stories daily for years now.

I doubt you're the only person torn. It also sounds like the rarely discussed spectacular ideological split in the right-wing. Eg CPRE nimbys vs tear up Planning and increase profits on house-building.

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So it's a liberalism/neo-liberalism thing ?

That's illuminating because the population have been pumped with eu mmigration scare stories daily for years now.

I doubt you're the only person torn. It also sounds like the rarely discussed spectacular ideological split in the right-wing. Eg CPRE nimbys vs tear up Planning and increase profits on house-building.

Yeah I've never been worried about the effects of people moving about the world freely. Scare stories about some nebulous groups taking jobs and altering 'culture' (which is increasingly just some form of consumerism everywhere anyway) aren't something I give any time for. I didn't choose where I was born, neither did anyone else and I don't have a monopoly on luck.

I know enough people from enough different places to know that most people are self interested, worried about their own minor insecurities and personal dramas more than anything else. The people who look to blame other 'normal' people for their personal problems are usually pretty to put it bluntly pretty economically inept and sucking the state's teet anyway.

Now, what does concern me are the powers that have been granted to people who are deeply morally vapid and ideologically driven. The thing I don't like is that often I hear very little anger towards them, and very much anger towards individuals who have very little say or skin in the game anyway. I dislike that intensely.

The point that someone made about going elsewhere and finding it the same is very true - and not something I haven't thought about. Having been to a lot of places, there isn't any green green grass anywhere.

This is why I'm torn. I would rather have no centralised governments/banks given excessive powers on things that markets should decide, and individual freedom to move.

Yes I'm an 18 year old free market anarchist protesting student who know's nothing at heart!

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^^


After meeting with Cameron in Warsaw, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, who as head of the ruling Law and Justice party is viewed as the ultimate decision maker in Poland, said he was satisfied.

"We have gained really very, very much," said Kaczynski, who is also a former prime minister and the twin brother of late president Lech Kaczynski.

"Poland has ... gained here really very much, full safety, above all, for all those who are in Britain right now, but also that those who have children in Poland will continue to receive benefits, they may be adjusted, but they will get them anyway."

Clearly Polish people have come out of the "negotiations" far better than British people - well done Dave.

Maybe Dave should use the word supplications rather than negotiations when mentioning the issue.

Edited by billybong
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Yeah I've never been worried about the effects of people moving about the world freely. Scare stories about some nebulous groups taking jobs and altering 'culture' (which is increasingly just some form of consumerism everywhere anyway) aren't something I give any time for. I didn't choose where I was born, neither did anyone else and I don't have a monopoly on luck.

I know enough people from enough different places to know that most people are self interested, worried about their own minor insecurities and personal dramas more than anything else. The people who look to blame other 'normal' people for their personal problems are usually pretty to put it bluntly pretty economically inept and sucking the state's teet anyway.

Now, what does concern me are the powers that have been granted to people who are deeply morally vapid and ideologically driven. The thing I don't like is that often I hear very little anger towards them, and very much anger towards individuals who have very little say or skin in the game anyway. I dislike that intensely.

The point that someone made about going elsewhere and finding it the same is very true - and not something I haven't thought about. Having been to a lot of places, there isn't any green green grass anywhere.

This is why I'm torn. I would rather have no centralised governments/banks given excessive powers on things that markets should decide, and individual freedom to move.

Yes I'm an 18 year old free market anarchist protesting student who know's nothing at heart!

The entire open borders argument seems very naive to me. Societies have been built around the assumption of a fiscal unit, i.e. the nation-state. Undermining that fiscal unit without creating something in it's place is not a good idea. Eastern Europe has essentially out-sourced any effort at fighting inequality and unemployment to the UK, so that countries like Hungary can cut their top marginal rates of income tax to 20%. Meanwhile, the UK runs a 5% fiscal deficit to fund a welfare system for 500 million people. The EU isn't an effective fiscal unit, but it also lacks the democratic authority to ever be one. The end result of the UK being in the EU will either be bankruptcy, or massive cutbacks to the welfare state leaving people to die on the street.

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The entire open borders argument seems very naive to me. Societies have been built around the assumption of a fiscal unit, i.e. the nation-state. Undermining that fiscal unit without creating something in it's place is not a good idea. Eastern Europe has essentially out-sourced any effort at fighting inequality and unemployment to the UK, so that countries like Hungary can cut their top marginal rates of income tax to 20%. Meanwhile, the UK runs a 5% fiscal deficit to fund a welfare system for 500 million people. The EU isn't an effective fiscal unit, but it also lacks the democratic authority to ever be one. The end result of the UK being in the EU will either be bankruptcy, or massive cutbacks to the welfare state leaving people to die on the street.

Don't get me wrong. I understand what you are saying. I'll try and distill my position.

I want everyone to have the same opportunities as everyone else.

I want everyone to take responsibility for themselves, unless they are incapable of doing so because of something outside their control (e.g. disability).

I want to see an end to incentives that co-erce people to move about *or* - and this is important - stay where they are purely on the basis of using welfare states as a subsidy.

In conclusion - yep freedom of movement may be niaive when the wrong incentives are in place, but if those incentives could be removed, to me at least they are the right thing to have. Because I don't have any more rights to anything than anyone else because of dumb luck being born somewhere. That's something I can't not feel.

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I like the idea of a common market, I even like the idea of a European superstate, but in many many years time when the people of Europe actually want it and vote for it. What I don't like is for a super state to be forced on us with no real representation. I think as things get harder in the EU, more people will "rebel" and the whole thing will blow up. Look at what happened to the Baltic states when you force people together who don't feel as one. I would prefer that we be outside the EU when that happens, that is why I am leaning towards voting for Brexit.

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I hope we leave the EU, all the farm subsidy has ever done for me is to raise the land price so much that I couldn't buy a farm, whilst my landlord whom I rent the farm off put the rent up so much that he got the subsidy for himself. That many rules and regulations now on what you can and cant grow and in what proportions that its more bother than what its worth on a small scale.

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So everybody who disagrees with you is stupid?

You're a real classy guy.

They lost me when they approved the bank bailouts despite them being in direct contravention of the treaty of Rome and illegal under EU law.

So what's your actual argument for staying in? You need something better than it's what the cool kids are going to vote for :)

you mean just like the BoE and the FED and everyone else bailed out the banks? We have all the day laws of the EU and then some. We have a humongous property bubble that they don't, we have an unelected monarchy a throwback from feudalism, we have a City State that almost has sovereign powers. I think the out guys are are going to be shocked to their socks when they realize OUT solves virtually none of the problems and introduces a few more. Not that the EU is great, on the contrary it's an abomination. But so is everyone else

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I like the idea of a common market, I even like the idea of a European superstate, but in many many years time when the people of Europe actually want it and vote for it. What I don't like is for a super state to be forced on us with no real representation. I think as things get harder in the EU, more people will "rebel" and the whole thing will blow up. Look at what happened to the Baltic states when you force people together who don't feel as one. I would prefer that we be outside the EU when that happens, that is why I am leaning towards voting for Brexit.

exactly.

this superstate has been formed on the lines of coercion,not consent.

and has sweet FA to offer the little guy.

if ithad been formed along the lines of the states of the US, which have a CONSIDERABLE amount of autonomy, and there are very clear guidelines as to what federal government is,and is not, ALLOWED to do, then it might have stood a chance of success.

but NO, herr juncker basically stated 2 things about the EU yesterday

1) their gameplan is to act as a counterweight to US, which the US being the bulwark of NATO, should frankly be rather upset about

2) the overarching type of "nation" they are trying to build is top down hierarchy, ie new empire with omnipotent caesar.NOT a democracy.

the above 2 reasons are enough for my "leave" vote.

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you mean just like the BoE and the FED and everyone else bailed out the banks? We have all the day laws of the EU and then some. We have a humongous property bubble that they don't, we have an unelected monarchy a throwback from feudalism, we have a City State that almost has sovereign powers. I think the out guys are are going to be shocked to their socks when they realize OUT solves virtually none of the problems and introduces a few more. Not that the EU is great, on the contrary it's an abomination. But so is everyone else

We have absolutely zero control over the EU, now and forever. While the London government has it's issues, they are small beer compared to the EU. The EU absolutely does not give a to$$ what anybody thinks, and EU bigwigs say as much quite baldly from time to time.

Also if moaning about the Citeh is your bag, then surely you should be pretty dubious about what Goldman Sachs wants. Which is to stay in the EU.

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Getting desperate honey?

You're going to be busy.

I s'pose the overtime will be welcome.

Oh yes, and fack off again.

Edited by shindigger
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