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The Masked Tulip

Dietrich Bonhoeffer's Birthday

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I think a lot of atheists have issues with organised religion(s), not with individuals who do good in the name of one.

I think a lot of atheists have issues with authority per se.

I'm not judging - just saying as I see it.

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Many prominent atheists are very keen on authority. Dawkins and Hitchens for instance are and were quite keen on the state. I think history suggests states are more dangerous than religious (obviously the some very bad examples of both together, but without the state religious extremists are just lone nutters - you need the state to do damage on a large scale)

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Many prominent atheists are very keen on authority. Dawkins and Hitchens for instance are and were quite keen on the state. I think history suggests states are more dangerous than religious (obviously the some very bad examples of both together, but without the state religious extremists are just lone nutters - you need the state to do damage on a large scale)

Dawkins I can't say for sure (other that I think he's an aggressive d!ck) but Hitchens (I presume you mean the dead one!) I'd never describe as a statist; his views being pretty much libertarian

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Won't go down well with the strident atheists on this forum

He seems like one of the "good guys" to me, and I'm not religious. ^_^

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I posted this thread because he stood up against the Nazis and gave his life opposing them. I feel somewhat saddened that the Dawkins lot cannot see beyond their narrow world view to understand the sacrifice that this man gave.

It is not about whether there is or is not some supreme being or creator or not. You can discuss that in a 1001 other threads on a 1001 other websites or elsewhere on HPC off-topic. It is not about his religious beliefs. It is about the man. What he did. That he lived. That he existed and was prepared to stand up and speak out against a terrible evil. That he was murdered for speaking out.

Try and think of that.

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I posted this thread because he stood up against the Nazis and gave his life opposing them. I feel somewhat saddened that the Dawkins lot cannot see beyond their narrow world view to understand the sacrifice that this man gave.

It is not about whether there is or is not some supreme being or creator or not. You can discuss that in a 1001 other threads on a 1001 other websites or elsewhere on HPC off-topic. It is not about his religious beliefs. It is about the man. What he did. That he lived. That he existed and was prepared to stand up and speak out against a terrible evil. That he was murdered for speaking out.

Try and think of that.

++1

Didn't mean to derail the thread - sorry Tulip.

On thetheme of this thread

another one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_J%C3%A4gerst%C3%A4tter

Franz Jagerstatter

Catholic conscientious objector - shot by the nazis

and a fellow Pole

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe

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I posted this thread because he stood up against the Nazis and gave his life opposing them

Total respect for what he and others did during this terrible period. Many preferred to keep their heads down and say nothing. Fear is a terrible force.

However, I like to think that he may - just may - have done the same thing had he not been a Lutherian christian. Others not of his religious strain also performed heroics during WW2.

My grandad was an athiest, but fought in the British Army. For example.

Edit : I'm not sure I'd have even 1% of the courage of the man you highlighted if the same situation arose now. Just to put his deeds into some persepctive. Respect to him and his ilk.

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Dawkins I can't say for sure (other that I think he's an aggressive d!ck) but Hitchens (I presume you mean the dead one!) I'd never describe as a statist; his views being pretty much libertarian

Yes, Christopher: I'm not sure in what sense he could be considered libertarian. He supported some military interventions and he was quite enthusiastic about interventions at home (I've heard him talk favourably about the welfare state for instance). Neither of these are extreme or unusual positions, but they absolutely exclude one from being considered libertarian.

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Yes, Christopher: I'm not sure in what sense he could be considered libertarian. He supported some military interventions and he was quite enthusiastic about interventions at home (I've heard him talk favourably about the welfare state for instance). Neither of these are extreme or unusual positions, but they absolutely exclude one from being considered libertarian.

Pragmatic in his foreign policy perhaps, but pro LGBT rights, pro gun, anti war on drugs, anti religion (organised at least), anti death penalty, and anti-monarchist. That all points to anti establishment/against the power of the state/libertarian in my book.

But let the man speak for himself: in a 2001 C-SPAN appearance, he told a caller:

If you are a libertarian you may find some nourishment in my book [Letters to a Young Contrarian] where I say that in the same breath as I-as I mourn the decay of some of my socialist allegiances that deep down I've always been a sympathizer of the libertarian anti-statist point of view. And one of the things that attracted me to socialism in the beginning was the idea of withering away of the state.

Source: The man himself:

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PinWorld is full of lovely people, who believe all sorts of stuff that I have a problem with believing, but you should act as if this life is your last, even if you believe in afterlife! It costs nothing to be good now!

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That was an interesting response and you raise some interesting points.

But first of all I think it's unfortunate to mention the withering away of the state, as this seems akin to a religious belief. I'm not aware of any evidence of the state ever withering away, so that authoritarian socialism evolves into libertarian socialism. I'm also not sure if anyone has written about how this might happen. But Marx wrote about it and that is enough for those who have faith.

I realise Hitchens may have been sympathetic to libertarianism, but clearly he wasn't a libertarian. Similarly he may have been sympathetic to Bonhoeffer, but not a Christian.

I've heard Hitchens quote Clement Attlee: "If a rich man wants to help the poor, he should pay his taxes gladly, not dole out money at a whim." This is very illiberal!

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That was an interesting response and you raise some interesting points.

But first of all I think it's unfortunate to mention the withering away of the state, as this seems akin to a religious belief. I'm not aware of any evidence of the state ever withering away, so that authoritarian socialism evolves into libertarian socialism. I'm also not sure if anyone has written about how this might happen. But Marx wrote about it and that is enough for those who have faith.

I realise Hitchens may have been sympathetic to libertarianism, but clearly he wasn't a libertarian. Similarly he may have been sympathetic to Bonhoeffer, but not a Christian.

I've heard Hitchens quote Clement Attlee: "If a rich man wants to help the poor, he should pay his taxes gladly, not dole out money at a whim." This is very illiberal!

Yeah, I'm also puzzled how he equates socialism to the withering away of the state.

Was he libertarian? I can only go with what I've heard him say and his stance on the examples I gave you, but I don't think you can say outright that he wasn't

Libertarianism is not a binary state, it's on a spectrum. I didn't mention he was anti-abortion (as that contradicts my argument) but he was. However, I don't think being in support of some state mandated and imposed welfare makes him a non libertarian (as I understand you do according to your quote). Some are more libertarian than others - I guess all the way up to anarchist, so I disagree with you that being in support of some sort of welfare state (or any other government intervention) excludes him from being considered or considering himself a libetarian

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I'm an agnostic.

Most of the people I truly admire have been religious, however.

Yes! Maybe it was the thing of the day? "God" is my name for the whole universe. I can see it up a telescope, when I work out how to put this lens on.

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