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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4535856.stm

Starting out with £20k of debt will prevent a lot of these potential high earners getting into property.

I know its been said before, but thought it was worth posting.

Even saving at £3k a year to pay it off it would still nearly take 7 years. I dont know at what age med students star earning, but cant be much earlier than 25. Factor in another 5 years to save a decent deposit and they're all knocking on 40 before being able to buy.

Nuff said.

JP.

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4535856.stm

Starting out with £20k of debt will prevent a lot of these potential high earners getting into property.

I know its been said before, but thought it was worth posting.

Even saving at £3k a year to pay it off it would still nearly take 7 years. I dont know at what age med students star earning, but cant be much earlier than 25. Factor in another 5 years to save a decent deposit and they're all knocking on 40 before being able to buy.

Nuff said.

JP.

Student loans arent taken into account when calculating morgage income multiples! Because the APR is at the same rate as RPI (notice its not CPI ;p). If you have a student loan you shouldnt pay it off any faster...

Of course it does give you less money at the end of the mounth, so you cant lie to buy by as much. Student loans are paid off over a long period of time, depending on how much you earn, you could be paying your loan off for 20->25 years, or longer if you get paid less...

http://www.studentsupportdirect.co.uk/port...schema=PROTOCOL

The size of your income determines how much you repay. The first £15,000 of your annual income (or monthly / weekly equivalent) is disregarded and your repayment is worked out as 9% of the remaining balance.

so say you earn 1500 a mounth, your only paying back £22 a mounth (for the rest of your life)!

Edited by moosetea

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To be honest they're not that bad off. I'm not sure how this European working time directive will affect their pay, but I don't know of any staving medics. Their basic pay is no where near what they take home due to the extra hours. Don't get me wrong, they work hard, but we're talking 50k-70k for most by their early 30s with guaranteed pensions. If you look at GPs half are on £100K+. Doesn't take long earning that kind of money to pay off student debts.

Edited by The_Equalizer

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4535856.stm

Starting out with £20k of debt will prevent a lot of these potential high earners getting into property.

I know its been said before, but thought it was worth posting.

Even saving at £3k a year to pay it off it would still nearly take 7 years. I dont know at what age med students star earning, but cant be much earlier than 25. Factor in another 5 years to save a decent deposit and they're all knocking on 40 before being able to buy.

Nuff said.

JP.

Don't be silly buy a £200,00 house experience 20% appreciation in a year mew pay off £20,000 and have £20,000 left to play with.

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It might not be £20k but £40k

ie Male ex student meets Femail ex student each owing £20k in student debt so start 'married life' with £40k of debt between them even before they buy their first property !

They could then easily be in debt to the tune of £200k living in a grotty ex council flat ...

with a kid on the way

THEY DO NOT STAND A CHANCE

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To be honest they're not that bad off. I'm not sure how this European working time directive will affect their pay, but I don't know of any staving medics. Their basic pay is no where near what they take home due to the extra hours. Don't get me wrong, they work hard, but we're talking 50k-70k for most by their early 30s with guaranteed pensions. If you look at GPs half are on £100K+. Doesn't take long earning that kind of money to pay off student debts.

Quite agree. The BMA are always quick to respond when wallets are threatened. Hence the huge rise GP's got recently and why my friend's 30 year old GP sister drives a TT Roadster - I wonder why the NHS is on its knees?

What about the engineering and science graduates who might have just as much debt, start of on a pitance,

and end up earning not that much.

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The reason the NHS is on it's knees is not because 30 year old GP's can afford audi TT's. Doctors were much better remunerated before the inception of the NHS. Not many UK doctors arrive at St Swithins in a Bentley with a driver anymore. At least the GP actually does something. The main reason the NHS is on its knees are the armies of people with clip boards. All supplying Whitehall with figures and not really helping to treat any body. The whole thing has been taken over by an army of resource hoovers.

Hospitals used to run perfectly well with a board of governers, a medical advisory committee and a small management to enact what those two bodies decided. Efficient and cheap. Yes there were waiting lists but this was more down to lack of clinical resoruces than managers.

What has been forgotten is that a hospital is a big building for patients to meet doctors, not a work creation scheme for managers, or a political front of house for the labour party.

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I have to add that I know, roughly, how much doctors are on. Fact - one I know quite well - aged 27 - is undertaking research (£32K basic) which equates to about £45K with overtime. The year before research (aged 26) she was on £52K. Post research aged 29 she'll clear £60-65K. Her brother is 30 and a surgeon on £70K+. The interesting thing is there's not a great deal of difference in pay if you work in London or the back of beyond - just like other public sector jobs. Moreover, what the BMA fails to point out is that the NHS won't exist in its current state for too much longer. A lot of this medical stuff will turn into private work and then the sky's the limit. Bleating about £20K debt is somewhat annoying considering they are fully aware of these facts.

As rightly pointed out there are other professions that employ equally as educated people who don't get half the financial benefits.

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A lot of this medical stuff will turn into private work and then the sky's the limit.

Hardly. If medical care goes private, British doctors will have to compete with doctors in countries like Thailand and India, where treatment by Western-trained doctors is available for a small fraction of the price even including the cost of flights.

Certainly there are areas of medicine which will continue to be profitable (you're not likely to be flown abroad to save a few quid if you get hit by a bus), but it's going to be outsourced almost as much as every other field in the next decade or two.

And, frankly, it's well past time that we stopped artificially propping up medical salaries by deliberately limiting the supply of doctors.

Edited by MarkG

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All

The BMA is a very powerful union. It restricts the number of redbrick universities which can

teach 5 year MBBS & MBChS degrees. Effectively it is a closed shop. What you will see in the

next couple of years is an increase in the number of private medical practices. The NHS will

become relient on foreign Dr and pay monkey nuts for a monkey service.

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The BMA is a very powerful union. It restricts the number of redbrick universities which can

teach 5 year MBBS & MBChS degrees.

Exactly: and that is why doctors get paid so much compared to similarly skilled jobs elsewhere. That comfy little co-dependency with the NHS isn't going to last as medical costs for the boomers explode.

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Not entirely true. Firstly, medical standards and treatment differ quite considerably across the globe. You'd have to be pretty sure you're getting like-for-like. Would you fancy disappearing over to India for your heart-bypass? Moreover, there is some form of protectionism - you can't nip over to America and practice medicine with British qualifications. You have to re-sit various exams. As pointed out - accident victims can't pop to Poland if they've been in a car smash. It's very hard to go to China to visit a doctor should your treatment require multiple visits. There's also the language barrier and cultural differences. People are very particular about health care - it's not like buying a car, food or a new jumper!

Also note that many universities are offering a far greater number of places for medicine. Several four-year graduate schemes have popped up. Curiously the UK has a greater number of doctors per head than a lot of other European countries already.

Edited by The_Equalizer

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Would you fancy disappearing over to India for your heart-bypass?

If the choice is between paying 20k for a heart bypass in India or 200k for a heart bypass in Britain, I think most people would take the cheap option: heck, most people simply couldn't afford the expensive option, so it would be a choice between probably surviving and definitely dying.

A friend in Thailand says that lots of Americans have been going there for essential treatment that they couldn't possibly afford in America: the doctors are mostly US-trained and working in decent hospitals, so you get very similar treatment for maybe a tenth of the price. Foreign medical treatment is probably going to be a booming market in the next couple of decades.

People are very particular about health care - it's not like buying a car, food or a new jumper!

They're only 'particular' when they don't have to pay for it: would you settle for a Fiat Panda if you could have a Ferrari for the same price?

When it comes down to saving the price of a small house by accepting a small increase in risk (but, then again, don't forget that people have gone into British hospitals for minor operations and died from infections caught due to poor cleaning), most people will choose to save that money.

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In which case we will go full circle. As standards rise in less developed countries, the cost of medical treatment will too. Doctors from less well paid countries will move over to better paid ones if we have a truly free global market. There will be health care insurance. If doctors aren't paid enough people will choose other professions. In fact there's already a tendency for people to aim for legal and banking work over medicine.

The bottom line is, despite variations doctors will always be paid relatively well.

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As standards rise in less developed countries, the cost of medical treatment will too.

Standards are already high in those hospitals, and the doctors are already well-paid by local standards. Unless they get their own BMA to artificially increase the costs, it's going to be the cost of healthcare in the west that drops, not theirs that increases.

The bottom line is, despite variations doctors will always be paid relatively well.

But no more than engineers or other similarly skilled jobs in other areas.

And, let's face it, many doctors spend most of their time doing little more complicated than the equivalent of putting plasters on kids' knees: that's not a job that's worth 100k a year, without a medical union to keep competition out.

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I owed 15k in student loans when I bought my first house, the mortgage company didnt even care one bit about it. I was told student loans where not taken into account and it did not effect my mortgage multiple. Its taken me 4 years(with 3 more to go) to pay it off :(

Edited by zag2me

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The reason the NHS is on it's knees is not because 30 year old GP's can afford audi TT's. Doctors were much better remunerated before the inception of the NHS. Not many UK doctors arrive at St Swithins in a Bentley with a driver anymore. ...

That turns out not to be the case. Except for 'high society' practitioners (who could admittedly charge very high fees, doctors were not particularly well paid compared to other professionals prior to WW2.

Wasn't there one professor who famously started his first lecture each year with the comment 'Gentlemen (which was the case then), if you intend to practice medicine you need independent means or a wealthy wife'?

Even in the US the concept of the wealthy doctor is a phenomenon of the 20th century.

All

The BMA is a very powerful union. It restricts the number of redbrick universities which can

teach 5 year MBBS & MBChS degrees. Effectively it is a closed shop. What you will see in the

next couple of years is an increase in the number of private medical practices. The NHS will

become relient on foreign Dr and pay monkey nuts for a monkey service.

Same here in Australia.

The AMA and the Law Society are the most successful trade unions in all Australia, bar none, and with sufficient clout to ensure that "Professional Associations" always get specifically excluded when any anti-union legislation gets drafted.

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A friend in Thailand says that lots of Americans have been going there for essential treatment that they couldn't possibly afford in America: the doctors are mostly US-trained and working in decent hospitals, so you get very similar treatment for maybe a tenth of the price. Foreign medical treatment is probably going to be a booming market in the next couple of decades.

I believe Thailand, or more correctly some medical entrepreneurs within Thailand, see this as an international arbitrage opportunity. They are setting up hospitals to US/European standards, and advertising treatment/holiday recuperation deals aimed at the US/European/Global elite market.

The Thai government goes along;

1. Because they're corrupt.

2. Because there are genuine benefits to the overall Thai Health sector. Thai training institutions lift their standards to meet these hospitals' requirements, directly for nursing and support staff and indirectly for doctors (who have to get to a high enough standard to enter foreign graduate schools so they can come back 'US/Europe trained'). The entire sector benefits from these increased standards, as it is not likely that the volume in these hospitals will affect overall coverage.

Yes, the brain drain may well then come into play. But that's another issue (which I happen to feel strongly about; I'm as pro-free-enterprise as the next man but it's an absolute disgrace that the First World should be sponging off the education system of the rest).

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GP = hospital receptionist.

GP's have 3 boxes to tick in a consultation

a) Prescribe antibiotics

b)Prescribe Prozac

c) if above fail refer to specialist (not you)

d) Go home and complain how hard your day is sitting down drinking coffee.

That is a very ignorant view. GPs need a massive amount level of knowledge to perform this "receptionist" role. There is a huge amount of management of patients that goes on in primary care. E.g. diabetes, heart disease, hypertension.

The role of a GP is to treat what can be treated in a straightforward manner, and decide which patients have genuine problems which need referral to an expensive specialist unit. If they simply referred everyone on, the NHS would buckle immediately.

The skill is in differentiating and allocating limited resources - an impossible task wothout years of hard work acquiring knowledge and developing skills.

But no more than engineers or other similarly skilled jobs in other areas.

And, let's face it, many doctors spend most of their time doing little more complicated than the equivalent of putting plasters on kids' knees: that's not a job that's worth 100k a year, without a medical union to keep competition out.

"other similarly skilled jobs in other areas"

like the lawyer who can earn up to £1m a year?

The accounting firm partner who can earn £1m a year?

The banker who can earn £20m a year?

The computer programmer who can earn £200k?

This forum is overpopulated with aggrieved engineers. I sympathise, but you need to look at the reasons why engineers are the "professional poor", not why everyone else isn't.

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That is a very ignorant view. GPs need a massive amount level of knowledge to perform this "receptionist" role. There is a huge amount of management of patients that goes on in primary care. E.g. diabetes, heart disease, hypertension.

The role of a GP is to treat what can be treated in a straightforward manner, and decide which patients have genuine problems which need referral to an expensive specialist unit. If they simply referred everyone on, the NHS would buckle immediately.

The skill is in differentiating and allocating limited resources - an impossible task wothout years of hard work acquiring knowledge and developing skills.

"other similarly skilled jobs in other areas"

like the lawyer who can earn up to £1m a year?

The accounting firm partner who can earn £1m a year?

The banker who can earn £20m a year?

The computer programmer who can earn £200k?

This forum is overpopulated with aggrieved engineers. I sympathise, but you need to look at the reasons why engineers are the "professional poor", not why everyone else isn't.

Ludicrous post. Agreed that being a GP is tougher than being a receptionist although it is well paid!

A doctor can earn into the £100,000s easily in the private sector. All your other examples are absolute top limit and don’t reflect the average for those industries in any shape or form. Show me a programmer earning £200,000 I would suggest if someone did get this sum they would be 10 times more skilled than the average doctor!!

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All

The BMA is a very powerful union. It restricts the number of redbrick universities which can

teach 5 year MBBS & MBChS degrees. Effectively it is a closed shop. What you will see in the

next couple of years is an increase in the number of private medical practices. The NHS will

become relient on foreign Dr and pay monkey nuts for a monkey service.

Bang on....the medical unions (doctors and nurses) will run themselves into the ground and will only have themselves to blame.

If the unions don't start playing ball the government will just import foreign doctors and nurses (as they are doing already) and export patients (as it is already doing).

The medical profession does not have a unquestionable right to independence and power - that has been given to it by the state over many years...and what the state gives the state can take away.

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Don't know how many of you have rung a gp's recently. The receptionist wnats to know what's wrong with you so they can see how ill you are as to whether to give you a same day appt or to give you one two weeks away.

Ring the docs out of houses and an answer machine'll tell you to ring the out of hours service.

They'll ask you to travel several miles to wait to see a doctor.

Ring NHS direct and they'll ring you back telling you to give someone a hot drink and wait for someone else to call and then the person who rings - the viral nurse will diagnose a virus over the phone and then tell you giving someone a hot drink was the wrong thing to do.

My Saturday appointment for a hospital appointment was great thoguh - although no to suit me but to clear a backlog!

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Bang on....the medical unions (doctors and nurses) will run themselves into the ground and will only have themselves to blame.

If the unions don't start playing ball the government will just import foreign doctors and nurses (as they are doing already) and export patients (as it is already doing).

The medical profession does not have a unquestionable right to independence and power - that has been given to it by the state over many years...and what the state gives the state can take away.

The chaos that ensue following a medical walkout means that government would ever take the risk of challenging them.

p.s. a private system, if the USA is anything to go by, would cost TWICE as much.

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  • 301 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • Even
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      • up 5%



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