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MattW

'pensions Backed' Rented Housing

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Apologies for the simplistic explanation. A few years ago there was some talk of building residential homes by pension companies (and insurance companies?) that would be rented out to tenants on a long term basis. The rental income in turn would then generate a persion for investors. Pretty much how it works in Germany, I understand.

Have any of these places been built in the UK yet? I would rather rent this way than via a spiv landlord.

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M&g real estate trust

Also I think Aviva are into property investment projects

The overall term you are looking for is Residential Investment Trusts, or REITs, a legal wrapper for large scale institutional investment in real estate, that has been developed over the past decade or so to mitigate some of the tax disadvantages that larger scale distributed investments had against one man band landlords

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Residential Investment Trusts - many thanks Si1! :)

I guess most of these have been built in that there London?!

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There was an article in the FT this morning (behind a paywall) saying that L&G has committed to invest £600m into new houses to rent. It may be insurance rather than pension money, but doesn't really matter from the tenants' perspective. Overall, it looks like an emerging trend that we'll be hearing a lot more about in the next few years. The BTL tax changes should turbo-boost all this.

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OK well if that's the way they want to go, here's my suggestion to open it up for all. Keep MMR in place, ban IO BTL mortgages. Allow people to use their funds in their SIPPS with no further leverage to buy a rental.

I'll buy a place outright in my SIPP out of capital that's not been taxed, get my sibling to do the same and we'll rent each others.

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OK well if that's the way they want to go, here's my suggestion to open it up for all. Keep MMR in place, ban IO BTL mortgages. Allow people to use their funds in their SIPPS with no further leverage to buy a rental.

I'll buy a place outright in my SIPP out of capital that's not been taxed, get my sibling to do the same and we'll rent each others.

Are you permitted to invest in unregulated investment vehicles in a SIPP at all? (Even individual listed shares are privy to transparent accounting regulations)?

You can already invest in regulated property trusts in your SIPP the following ways (note none of these are the Wilsons'property bond)

http://www.mandg.co.uk/investor/funds/property-portfolio/gb00b89pnj11/overview/

http://www.trustnet.com/Factsheets/Factsheet.aspx?fundCode=NUPRO&univ=U

http://i.legalandgeneral.com/consumer/investments/products-and-funds/actively-managed/other/investments-productsandfunds-activelymanaged-other-fund-property.jsp?utm_source=googlecouk&utm_medium=ppc&utm_network=google&utm_group=LandG_Fund_Actively-Managed_Funds_P&utm_campaign=q1&utm_device=mobile&utm_term=L_G+property+fund_P&cid=ggl_fund_1296&trkid=V1ADW157743-3254242138-k-L%26G+property+fund-66233902258-p-s

Edited by Si1

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These will not be a 100 Sems in Ashford.

Think Barbican - big, concentrated, occupied by working people.

Bar the odd brown envelope, there's nothing wrong with blocks of flats.

Problems tend to be the people they put in them.

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These will not be a 100 Sems in Ashford.

Think Barbican - big, concentrated, occupied by working people.

Bar the odd brown envelope, there's nothing wrong with blocks of flats.

Problems tend to be the people they put in them.

Or identikit family homes. Fine with me.

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Are you permitted to invest in unregulated investment vehicles in a SIPP at all? (Even individual listed shares are privy to transparent accounting regulations)?

You can already invest in regulated property trusts in your SIPP the following ways (note none of these are the Wilsons'property bond)

http://www.mandg.co.uk/investor/funds/property-portfolio/gb00b89pnj11/overview/

http://www.trustnet.com/Factsheets/Factsheet.aspx?fundCode=NUPRO&univ=U

http://i.legalandgeneral.com/consumer/investments/products-and-funds/actively-managed/other/investments-productsandfunds-activelymanaged-other-fund-property.jsp?utm_source=googlecouk&utm_medium=ppc&utm_network=google&utm_group=LandG_Fund_Actively-Managed_Funds_P&utm_campaign=q1&utm_device=mobile&utm_term=L_G+property+fund_P&cid=ggl_fund_1296&trkid=V1ADW157743-3254242138-k-L%26G+property+fund-66233902258-p-s

No I don't think you are allowed to do much in a SIPP other than the basics + some degree of shenanigans with your own company.

I'd like to see it opened up to any form of asset however exotic that can generate an income.

I'd stick it full of future classic cars and motorbikes and hire them out to myself and for magazine photoshoots/tv film productions!

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No I don't think you are allowed to do much in a SIPP other than the basics + some degree of shenanigans with your own company.

I'd like to see it opened up to any form of asset however exotic that can generate an income.

I'd stick it full of future classic cars and motorbikes and hire them out to myself and for magazine photoshoots/tv film productions!

That's probably why they don't open it up to unregulated assets mate :)

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There was an article in the FT this morning (behind a paywall) saying that L&G has committed to invest £600m into new houses to rent. It may be insurance rather than pension money, but doesn't really matter from the tenants' perspective. Overall, it looks like an emerging trend that we'll be hearing a lot more about in the next few years. The BTL tax changes should turbo-boost all this.

The FT story is behind a paywall, the Grauniad take on the same is not http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jan/27/legal-general-to-build-and-rent-out-3000-new-uk-homes

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This was one of Osbanker's key ideas.

When the pension firms didn't play ball, he stuck two fingers up at them and let people take their pension pots instead. Presumably so they could bang the money into BTL.

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The FT story is behind a paywall, the Grauniad take on the same is not http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jan/27/legal-general-to-build-and-rent-out-3000-new-uk-homes

Bit of a coincidence that I start this topic on the same day as this article. :D Hope this trend continues. Probably the next best alterative to social housing as a long term rent option now that it's being decimated by the Tory goons.

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Are you permitted to invest in unregulated investment vehicles in a SIPP at all? (Even individual listed shares are privy to transparent accounting regulations)?

You can already invest in regulated property trusts in your SIPP the following ways (note none of these are the Wilsons'property bond)

http://www.mandg.co.uk/investor/funds/property-portfolio/gb00b89pnj11/overview/

http://www.trustnet.com/Factsheets/Factsheet.aspx?fundCode=NUPRO&univ=U

http://i.legalandgeneral.com/consumer/investments/products-and-funds/actively-managed/other/investments-productsandfunds-activelymanaged-other-fund-property.jsp?utm_source=googlecouk&utm_medium=ppc&utm_network=google&utm_group=LandG_Fund_Actively-Managed_Funds_P&utm_campaign=q1&utm_device=mobile&utm_term=L_G+property+fund_P&cid=ggl_fund_1296&trkid=V1ADW157743-3254242138-k-L%26G+property+fund-66233902258-p-s

These funds you have picked typically invest in commercial property - offices, warehouses etc

Not many around investing in residential housing.

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These funds you have picked typically invest in commercial property - offices, warehouses etc

Not many around investing in residential housing.

There's a reason for that...

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That's probably why they don't open it up to unregulated assets mate :)

Haha - indeed. All I want is a Ducati Desmosedici in my SIPP. A guaranteed inflation hedge. I'm chanelling a poverty118'er and saying its not fair!

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M&g real estate trust

Also I think Aviva are into property investment projects

The overall term you are looking for is Residential Investment Trusts, or REITs, a legal wrapper for large scale institutional investment in real estate, that has been developed over the past decade or so to mitigate some of the tax disadvantages that larger scale distributed investments had against one man band landlords

No. REITs are just a particular way of holding commercial/industrial property, with different tax treatment to a regular IT.

OK well if that's the way they want to go, here's my suggestion to open it up for all. Keep MMR in place, ban IO BTL mortgages. Allow people to use their funds in their SIPPS with no further leverage to buy a rental.

I'll buy a place outright in my SIPP out of capital that's not been taxed, get my sibling to do the same and we'll rent each others.

One of the few things Gordon did right in about 2005 was to drop that particular proposal. Letting us buy property from untaxed income would have driven prices up yet further. Though it would suit me personally, even if I had to pay myself rent.

This was one of Osbanker's key ideas.

When the pension firms didn't play ball, he stuck two fingers up at them and let people take their pension pots instead. Presumably so they could bang the money into BTL.

You're confusing two different things. The idea here is that rentals should back annuities. The one needs a reliable income stream; the other provides it.

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Personally I welcome the drive towards build to rent. This is like the supermarket revolution of the 60/70's, where the overpriced small cornershop grocers were put out of business by the supermarkets.

Economies of scale is what the PRS can benefit from, a real business running 500 properties in one town can hire a full time builder, plumber and electrician whereas the amateur with one BTL has to hire someone whenever something goes wrong and hope they aren't too busy. If it cost the company £150,000 pa to hire these guys that's £300 pa per flat or £25 pcm, which is nothing, but impossible for the amateur. Funnily enough economies of scale is what the retarded BTL LL brigade don't understand, I think we all get the reason why ASDA can sell petrol at 1p above full cost whereas the small petrol station can't, but they don't.

I have to admit my LL is company (apparently they've owned the place since the 90s) and in comparison to the amateurs I've had to deal with they are a dream, inspections ceased after the 1st year when they happy you can look after a place and they understand the concept of voids so don't touch the rent.

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Personally I welcome the drive towards build to rent. This is like the supermarket revolution of the 60/70's, where the overpriced small cornershop grocers were put out of business by the supermarkets.

Economies of scale is what the PRS can benefit from, a real business running 500 properties in one town can hire a full time builder, plumber and electrician whereas the amateur with one BTL has to hire someone whenever something goes wrong and hope they aren't too busy.

+1. Though I can't see myself being in that market any more, it'll help all round (except for the slumlords).

But the economies of scale exist already. You can have a small private landlord, but if there's a decent agent, they'll have all the expertise, and workmen on their books. Of course, finding a decent agent becomes the next problem.

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Porca, RESIDENTIAL investment trusts are for commercial property? Slightly misnamed then?

No wonder the world of investing is trés confusing! :blink:

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Porca, RESIDENTIAL investment trusts are for commercial property? Slightly misnamed then?

Hehe, missed that in what I was quoting.

REIT = Real Estate Investment Trust.

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