Immigration Poll

[Steppenpig]

Oh no, not another immigration thread! Sorry, can the mods leave it here for a day or two, as I think the demographic is a bit different up here.

In addition, I have a general question for those of you who are neutral or positively disposed. Do you find the actions of the anti-immigrant posse do more harm to their cause than good? In particular, does posting rants or gross comments on forums just make you not want to be associated with them? I personally seem to have gone in the last year from been offended by such posts, to now writing them myself. In my defence, it's really the authorities and establishment I am angry with, but it's hard to express that as succinctly as a simple xenophobic post.

This is a thread more for trying to get to the root of peoples attitudes, why do people seem to be drawn in opposing directions, rather than for specific justifications or incidents, for which there are other threads.

Thanks.

edit: I have deliberately kept the question vague, vote with your heart.

[Timak]

I live in a multi-cultural place and have friends from all over the world. However what they have in common is they are educated and embrace the western lifestyle.

What I'm less keen on is people moving to the UK (and indeed expats moving out of the UK) and showing no interest in or adaptation to the place they are moving to. Yes you should keep some of your heritage when you move somewhere new but you should also adapt to local norms. Otherwise why move?

[b w]

Endgame is pretty clear to me but as I live in the London Borough of Hounslow I may have a heads up.

Just a matter of timeframe but unless an event changes the current trajectory I see no hope.

[GinAndPlatonic]

It was all bound to happen. We dont own the planet. Keep you and yours safe. Anti immigration posts will not stop anything and probably is bad for blood presure and lots of other stuf too.. Do gooders taking immigrants into a spare bedroom is highly naive, or maybe highly selective as to who it is they take in, but will not stop mass migrations, or rapes in Cologne either.

In bad times it is the law of the jungle unfortunately, thats the way of things and will always be so. It takes tough people to make tough decisions and tough people to fight wars to protect us from bad people. Today all the old lines of demarcation have become blurred and it is a very confusing world we live in. We no longer know who for definate are our true enemies, unless they point a gun at us.

I have a guy living next door to me who is from an alien culture to mine who I can tell is genuinely a decent person. We talk and we help each other out at times. Would I want to live in London,? Heck no thanks. Would I want to live amongst and within an alien culture to mine, ? no thanks.

The ramblings from someone who is tired and off to bed soon.

ps neutral.

[justthisbloke]

No problems with immigration. Even if I did, I'd be a bit of a ***** to worry too much about stemming it in this overpopulated world.

I voted "generally positive". But you have to qualify "for whom". Not for UK families of multi-generational dolies, I suspect.

Edit: the **** is C n u t - ie a little bit of a sort of joke.

[erat_forte]

I chose undecided because I disagree with restrictions on freedom of movement and freedom of association. I don't want state beurocrats deciding where I can and cannot travel, work or live.

Problems or benefits of certain demographic shifts are one thing, and perverse incentives for people to move are another. I think the perverse incentives are the real problem, not the lack of restrictions on individuals' freedoms.

[latterdaysinner]

"It takes tough people to make tough decisions and tough people to fight wars to protect us from bad people."

That reminds me of something

[John The Pessimist]

Voted Generally Positive. The vast majority of immigrants have integrated in without a problem. In 2004 we unwittingly partook in the last great firesale of white christian migrants.

What's washing up on our shores now is a completely different animal in terms of integration. We are sowing the whirlwind in our attempts to absorb the overflow of the world's problems.

BTW I'm a migrant from Ireland.

[pl1]

It's not about immigration anymore, it's about mass, uncontrolled immigration on never before seen scales #brexit

[billybong]

It's not about immigration anymore, it's about mass, uncontrolled immigration on never before seen scales #brexit

+1

and apart from anything else some apparently with a score to settle.

[spunko2010]

I chose very negative because the poll doesn't differentiate the religion of the migrants. I oppose all migration from the Islamic world and would support forced deportation for those who won't integrate. As for immigration in general, slightly less opposed if they are from a Western culture or happy to integrate.

[HovelinHove]

I am an immigrant to Canada (passed my citizenship test this week). Largely speaking immigration here works. Good mix of people in the room with me...Indians, Chinese, Brits and the obligatory Burka-clad oppressed female with her oppressor husband. So if we were talking about Canadian immigration I would say I am generally positive, however, we are not.

I left the UK for a multitude of reasons, some of these were a direct result of uncontrolled mass immigration initiated by New Labour. What has happened in the past year in Europe makes that look like nothing, and you can guarantee that many of the "refugees" that showed their true colours in Cologne will end up in the UK once they are EU citizens. Uncontroled mass Immigration is destroying the European way of life, which was once the envy of the world. So I am now very anti immigration.

[wherebee]

I am an immigrant, and have been to three countries now.

And yet - as I have posted before - I acknowledge the detrimental effect I have had on the natives as well as the positives I (hopefully) brought. I also had to have strict health, crime, and wealth checks. I had a limited time after which i had to leave, in most cases. I was a guest, not a housebreaker.

Finally, many, many studies show that social cohesion and trust decline the less homogenous a society is. I am opposed to mass immigration based on facts, not hate.

[little fish]

Until quite recently I would have voted that immigration was generally positive but tonight I voted vaguely positive and that’s maybe pushing it. Partly because I am thoroughly peed off with people who are so determined not to mess with their existing beliefs that they are minimising what has happened in Germany and other places. I am struggling with values I have always had being tested, but better a bit of reassessing head melt than denial or delusion, for me, anyway. May seem like a bit of a hypocritical stance as I have lived in numerous countries including Africa and the Middle East. The difference being that we educated ourselves about the cultures, traditions and religions of our host counties and abided by them.

[winkie]

Where people come form really doesn't matter....what matters is how they integrate into our culture,try to learn the language, accept our values, adhere to our laws and respect our way of life....

I do agree that people who live here should be treated equally, but I also think we should have more control of our boarders and who and how many new citizens we invite in.....generally immigration is a good and positive thing for everyone.

[spyguy]

There's also the reason why people are immigrating too.

Years ago, it was for work.

These days, its for benefits.

Just compare photos of the original Pakistani Mipuris who came to Bradford in the 70s - all dressed in jeans and the like (except the women!). Now they arrive looking like they've stepped out of the 1300s.

[TheCountOfNowhere]

The poll is a bit too generalised to be honest, though for me current immigration in the UK is very negative.

Immigration can be a good thing, if say birth rates drops and workers are needed. If there is a boom with full emplyoment and workers are needed, brilliant.

Open door ponzi-nomics immigration with millions of unemployed, lack of housing and with no investment in infrastructure, it's a disaster for the 99%-ers. It will eventually lead to social deivides/unrest/problems. When the "BRITISH" people are faced with being over-run with immigrant who9 would then hold the balance of power I fully expect to see some right wing partys gain a lot of traction.

At the end of the day, the Rich, The MPS, the Landed Gentry probably dont care who they rule over as they dont have to live next to them, work with them, drive to work on massively congested motorways.

[winkie]

Years ago we didn't have as higher percentage of the population claiming benefits as we do now....that in itself tells us the economy is not in a healthy state.

Single working men or individuals coming to work is different to one working person bringing with them other dependents with needs who do not work/can't work or can't speak the language and very often will never speak the language....integrating new immigrants takes time and generations, but it has to be done in a controlled, amicable and sustainenable way.

[spyguy]

Years ago we didn't have as higher percentage of the population claiming benefits as we do now....that in itself tells us the economy is not in a healthy state.

Single working men or individuals coming to work is different to one working person bringing with them other dependents with needs who do not work/can't work or can't speak the language and very often will never speak the language....integrating new immigrants takes time and generations, but it has to be done in a controlled, amicable and sustainenable and slow, low volume way.

[SpewLabour]

It's not about immigration anymore, it's about mass, uncontrolled immigration on never before seen scales #brexit

This. Nothing wrong with immigration. It's uncontrolled immigration that is the problem.

[justthisbloke]

This. Nothing wrong with immigration. It's uncontrolled immigration that is the problem.

As a libertarian, it's the control I object to.

I also suspect it's not "control" per se that you desire either. You could "control" and only let the blind and the lame and the lawless in - you'd have achieved "control" but to what end?

Obviously, that's not what you mean.

But what is it that you do object to and why?

[DeepLurker]

I'm in a bit of an unusual situation - my background is that of an immigrant. A British immigrant, who went to school in deep, rural France. At the time I was certainly the "most exotic" kid in school, and I got beat up a number of times simply because - and it's deeply un-PC to say this - kids can be nasty vicious little things and I was the "effing foreigner".

I don't talk often about this, simply because for most people the concept of a white Brit man being the victim of racism is a big fat "does not compute".

Oddly enough it still happens to me - my accent is a weird mix now, and a few years ago an Essex cow mistook me for a Pole and told me to "eff off back to your country".

Anyway.

I just wanted to add an anecdote to this thread: the other day my wife bought a Eurostar ticket. She was looking at the train times, and there was one which arrived at Gare du Nord (Paris) at 9pm on Friday - for both of us it was an immediate "nope, no way". We know that it will be full of men hanging around looking vaguely threatening, and that it's not a place for a woman on her own. It was not always like this - that station has changed in the last 10 years or so, and, sorry to say this, but these men weren't born in France.

What's interesting is that I paid no attention to the time her train left/arrived in London - no need to, the station there will be a safe place for a single woman. It's interesting because mass immigration in the last decade has created no-go zones in central Paris, and we (as a couple) have simply assimilated this state, and we work around it.

I believe that the "gently boiling a frog" joke applies here - Europe is changing, but it's so gradual that you have to step back and take a good hard look at yourself in order to spot it.

So, despite being an immigrant myself (who got bullied at school because of it), and at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite: I'm currently "very negative" about immigration.

[iamnumerate]

I am an immigrant, and have been to three countries now.

And yet - as I have posted before - I acknowledge the detrimental effect I have had on the natives as well as the positives I (hopefully) brought. I also had to have strict health, crime, and wealth checks. I had a limited time after which i had to leave, in most cases. I was a guest, not a housebreaker.

Finally, many, many studies show that social cohesion and trust decline the less homogenous a society is. I am opposed to mass immigration based on facts, not hate.

Sadly in the UK immigrants who play by the rules get punished. I know 2 people from the same city in South America one lied to get asylum one was honest. One is now living on benefits one had to leave. Lying works - the risk is very low.

[iamnumerate]

I'm in a bit of an unusual situation - my background is that of an immigrant. A British immigrant, who went to school in deep, rural France. At the time I was certainly the "most exotic" kid in school, and I got beat up a number of times simply because - and it's deeply un-PC to say this - kids can be nasty vicious little things and I was the "effing foreigner".

I don't talk often about this, simply because for most people the concept of a white Brit man being the victim of racism is a big fat "does not compute".

Oddly enough it still happens to me - my accent is a weird mix now, and a few years ago an Essex cow mistook me for a Pole and told me to "eff off back to your country".

Anyway.

I just wanted to add an anecdote to this thread: the other day my wife bought a Eurostar ticket. She was looking at the train times, and there was one which arrived at Gare du Nord (Paris) at 9pm on Friday - for both of us it was an immediate "nope, no way". We know that it will be full of men hanging around looking vaguely threatening, and that it's not a place for a woman on her own. It was not always like this - that station has changed in the last 10 years or so, and, sorry to say this, but these men weren't born in France.

What's interesting is that I paid no attention to the time her train left/arrived in London - no need to, the station there will be a safe place for a single woman. It's interesting because mass immigration in the last decade has created no-go zones in central Paris, and we (as a couple) have simply assimilated this state, and we work around it.

I believe that the "gently boiling a frog" joke applies here - Europe is changing, but it's so gradual that you have to step back and take a good hard look at yourself in order to spot it.

So, despite being an immigrant myself (who got bullied at school because of it), and at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite: I'm currently "very negative" about immigration.

I don't think you are hypocrite. I think immigration can be great, but not the way we do it.

[Killer Bunny]

Not voting as my thinking doesn't fit with any of the choices.

As far as I'm concerned ANYONE who wants to come here, peacefully and lawfully, can do so. But we don't give a penny of welfare. Let's see how many would come then, or stay if already here.