Biz Buildings Uses Steel Frames / Insulated Panels. Why Do Houses Use Bricks ?

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

IANAE (expert) but I don't think it simply a case of using SIPs for houses. From by brief understanding there are a couple of technical issues involved, they are not a wonder solution. Warehouses are not houses.

Typical panels are not that fantastic insulation, there can be issues with cold bridging, the detailing at the slab/sole plate needs attention and heating wise, a warehouse (low external surface area to internal volume ratio) behaves differently to a house.

Much homework needs doing if one wants to go down this route.

More commonly, timber frame is what people seem to choose.

[Saving For a Space Ship]

IANAE (expert) but I don't think it simply a case of using SIPs for houses. From by brief understanding there are a couple of technical issues involved, they are not a wonder solution. Warehouses are not houses.

Typical panels are not that fantastic insulation, there can be issues with cold bridging, the detailing at the slab/sole plate needs attention and heating wise, a warehouse (low external surface area to internal volume ratio) behaves differently to a house.

Much homework needs doing if one wants to go down this route.

More commonly, timber frame is what people seem to choose.

My understanding is that most issues with Sips have been sorted. as they have been around for 50 yrs

Care has to be taken to seal the joints to avoid thermal bridging as per passive house. But if you use timber frames, that is an unnecessary thermal bridge itself, hence the point of sips.

US homes are mainly "stick built" timber frame, I read somewhere that Sips houses are 50% stronger than timber frame. No rafters in the attic is a big space plus

http://buildipedia.com/aec-pros/construction-materials-and-methods/structural-insulated-panels-vs-coventional-framing

SIPs save energy by reducing the heat loss characteristic of conventional wood framing, as well as by reducing air leaks. According to the DOE, homes and commercial buildings constructed with SIP walls save 25% in energy losses. When floors and roofs are constructed by using SIPs, savings increase exponentially. The lifespan of SIPs is 50 years or more with no cost input. The air-tight construction of SIPs also virtually eliminates the possibility of mold in the exterior, nail pops, twisting of studs, and warping.

SIPs can also make workers' jobs easier after construction is complete: for example, SIPs eliminate the need to find studs prior to the installation of siding or drywall.Despite these advantages, sticker shock may be a deterrent to using SIPs, which are typically more expensive than the materials used for conventional wood construction.

However, while the initial cost of SIPs is higher than material costs for conventional building materials, when waste reduction, increased site productivity, and reduced labor costs are taken into account, the overall cost is virtually the same or sometimes lower than the cost of conventionally constructed buildings.

“There is a tremendous savings, and it happens within the first month you go into the house, and savings continue through the life of the mortgage,” Mammone says. Due to the fact that SIPs are lightweight (about 3 pounds per square foot) and easy to assemble, the use of SIPs significantly increases framing productivity.

The use of SIPs can reduce framing labor by as much as 55%, according to a study by Reed Construction Data. Labor costs are also reduced, because fewer workers are needed to erect a structure incorporating the all-in-one SIPs. Some manufacturers even offer precut SIPs, which further reduce labor costs.

[Guest]

They should build houses and apartments from stone, like all the 19th century properties people actually aspire to live in.

I'm not buying a building constructed like an office block.

[Saving For a Space Ship]

They should build houses and apartments from stone, like all the 19th century properties people actually aspire to live in.

I'm not buying a building constructed like an office block.

Perhaps you missed earlier thread comments, stating that a brick cladding (or stone cladding) could be added to the exterior of SIPS to make it look like a normal new build house, not an office block.

Unfortunately, as the average US consumer resource rate use is 8 x planets, Eu is 4 x planets. To survive in future this need to be below 1 x planet.

So whatever " 19th century properties people actually aspire to live in" a massive reduction in energy & resource use is required or it's all over

Source Vid here - http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/207435-kill-the-mortgage-talk-by-vinay-gupta-the-hexayurt-inventor/

I've found a timber frame (stick built) v Sips comparison study.

http://www.sips.org/downloads/rsmeanssipscoststudyreportjan2007.pdf

I cannot find a brick v sips energy / strength comparison but will keep searching.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Saving For a Space Ship

[Saving For a Space Ship]

Do they build houses this way abroad?

I would guess that a lot of the popular blocks of flats in Eu are made with Sips

[Steppenpig]

I don't think bricks have been used for "construction" for at least 30 years. As a skin they look nice, and are reasonably cheap. Here in Germany, a lot of construction seems to be from "aereated concrete" which is like breeze block, but has an insulation value half way between concrete and polystyrene, or by thos "honeycombed" earthenware bricks used in mediterranean countries.

(not an expert)

edit, and forgot to say, judging by the price of rsj's, steel is eye warteringly expensive. probably makes sense for a big project, but for small wibbly things, keep it simple.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Steppenpig

[RentaBear]

I found this by accident - it's about the lenders' attitudes to UK construction techniques and makes quite interesting reading IMHO:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjV_fWhrZjKAhVBtBoKHcqdBPQQFggdMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cml.org.uk%2Fdocuments%2Fnon-traditional-housing-in-the-uk-a-brief-overview-report%2Fpdf_pub_misc_NontradhousingBR.pdf.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGg8taLswuD0Wt8UeD2wkVQG3DsXQ

As others have already said, it isn't really in the interests of builders (bricklayers/roofers etc) to shift the value add from the building site where they work to the SIP factory where they don't. From what I can tell from reading things like the Housebuilder's Bible etc, SIPs are probably a bit dearer than blockwork at the moment, and the speed of construction advantages aren't really that great for self-builders as all the internal bits and bobs take the same length of time. I can however see that if you are a big housebuilder, your brickies can be putting the customer-accepted brick skin on while the other trades are busy in the water-tight shell, just a day or two after the panels arrived on site.

I also wonder what a big nominal HPC would do to construction techniques - if the builders don't want to just give in and wait for the land prices to bubble back up, they'd have to cut their costs to make houses that they can sell for less, and with labour being ~50% of build cost, and building regs requiring ever more insulation etc, I suspect that methods that favour off site construction would become more attractive.

[oracle]

Brick laying is still labour intensive so in a make job economy it's helps to keep the unemployment figures down. It's still an acceptable look, it's durable and forms the outer skin of the cavity wall mainly needed to prevent dampness - so it's also functional. There are alternative outer skins of course but brick is still popular.

no plan ahead, it's still all going from crisis to crisis and still asking people to wait for reasonable accommodation and pay through the nose for tiny homes etc etc.

so lets use gigantic lego with 3d printed sheets of epoxy-based mortar instead..

might cut down construction costs considerably.

you might just get an affordable house at the end of it.

Edited January 9, 2016 by oracle

[LiveinHope]

I despair at the old style of UK new builds.

I'll probably never own an house in the UK as I wouldn't want the 'stuck in the (dried) mud' way of building in this country, and land for self-build is too expensive. I'd be interested in SIPs and ICFs, and why aren't sheet metal roofs more popular too? I am currently planning a home office with SIPs and a sheet metal roof.

Edited January 9, 2016 by LiveinHope

[spyguy]

I despair at the old style of UK new builds.

I'll probably never own an house in the UK as I wouldn't want the 'stuck in the (dried) mud' way of building in this country, and land for self-build is too expensive. I'd be interested in SIPs and ICFs, and why aren't sheet metal roofs more popular too? I am currently planning a home office with SIPs and a sheet metal roof.

Some new builds are very energy efficient. Id rent one!

Problem is Id not buy one as they are too small and will not last long. By long I mean less than 26 years.

[LiveinHope]

Some new builds are very energy efficient. Id rent one!

Problem is Id not buy one as they are too small and will not last long. By long I mean less than 26 years.

Yes, I'd only ever rent a 'large developer's' new build. But they lack what I'd want in a modern house if I built from scratch, such as solar, exploiting passive heating, sun pipes, sheet metal roof etc, higher insulation spec (and space)

[RentaBear]

Yes, I'd only ever rent a 'large developer's' new build. But they lack what I'd want in a modern house if I built from scratch, such as solar, exploiting passive heating, sun pipes, sheet metal roof etc, higher insulation spec (and space)

None of that good stuff is cheap though - have you actually priced up a metal roof vs trad concrete tiles?

[Silverfinger]

Was watching some new builds go up near near me in a former vicarage garden, and they seem to be largely timber frame construction with considerable use of insulation panels in exterior and interior walls.

The bricks now seem to be for purely cladding the exterior, probably something to do with mortgageability?

I agree 100%. I have never seen a newer building in the UK that really was made from brick, it is pure facade, like lipstick on a pig. It is all cheap wood and plaster, metal and plastic. Just enter any newbuild house and knock on the wall. Ever heard anything sounding so hollow?

[LiveinHope]

None of that good stuff is cheap though - have you actually priced up a metal roof vs trad concrete tiles?

Well, that is also why it won't happen for me in the UK. If land was cheaper I'd be able to spend on decent materials. I have costed it all, but not in the UK, although in a country with a similar climate. It doesn't have to be zinc roofing that seems all the rage on UK designer properties (which tend to look like bus shelters). Colorbond is an interesting roofing.

Edited January 9, 2016 by LiveinHope

[Silverfinger]

They should build houses and apartments from stone, like all the 19th century properties people actually aspire to live in.

I'm not buying a building constructed like an office block.

I agree, or, maybe even better, cavity brick.

[Silverfinger]

I don't think bricks have been used for "construction" for at least 30 years. As a skin they look nice, and are reasonably cheap. Here in Germany, a lot of construction seems to be from "aereated concrete" which is like breeze block, but has an insulation value half way between concrete and polystyrene, or by thos "honeycombed" earthenware bricks used in mediterranean countries.

(not an expert)

edit, and forgot to say, judging by the price of rsj's, steel is eye warteringly expensive. probably makes sense for a big project, but for small wibbly things, keep it simple.

I think the highest standard in Germany is cavity brick filled with volcanic ash. Super-insulation, all natural, super heat storage capacities. At least an architect told me so. It is expensive.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Silverfinger

[Silverfinger]

Here, this is not filled with volcanic ash but mineral wool, I think, but that is close to it:

http://www.ziegelwerk-bellenberg.de/termine-news/presseberichte/mz8-ziegel.html

EDIT: I think compared to this, most what I have seen in the UK could be called "cardboard".

EDIT2: Investing in "bricks and mortar", it so funny, really. People don't understand that they just paid £500,000 for a hovel made of cheap wood chips and some plaster, plus styrofoam.

EDIT3: Anyhoo, go into any house built in the last 20 years in the UK and knock on the wall. Now go to Germany and do the same. Then you will understand why the world buys BMW and Mercedes, and not Rover.

EDIT4: 8 years ago in Edinburgh. I am viewing a flat that has been built a few years earlier. I knock on the wall, and ask the letting agent "will this still stand in 20 years time?" He says "we will sell way before that!"

Edited January 9, 2016 by Silverfinger