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Saving For a Space Ship

Biz Buildings Uses Steel Frames / Insulated Panels. Why Do Houses Use Bricks ?

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Thinking further on from the flooded / floating houses thread.
http://www.housepricecrash.co. uk/forum/index.php?/topic/207551-flooded-again-time-to-build-thousands-of-floating-houses/
In terms of a regularly flooded house, the insulated panels (sips) could be removed on ground floor & a steel frame could form stilts for a usable house above, perhas a new story could be built to replace the grnd floor loss
Does it make sense any more to use bricks on new builds? Or it is a kind of V.I / house industry fraud.
If you want bricks to blend in with neighbours historical houses, use a thin brick effect cladding.
The energy saving of Sips panels over bricks is enormous, brick walls cannot be insulated from the ground due to weight, foundation can be smaller due to less weight.
Other advantages are detailed here.

Great Insulators – the insulated core of the SIPS panel, means that SIPs provide great insulation properties and that there are not cold spots; as well as the building staying heated in an even fashion. The longevity of SIPs also means these insulation properties will last for the lifespan of the building.

Reduced Waste – in terms of waste, because SIPs are pre-cut in the factory to suit the job they are built for, then there is a lot less on site waste which makes the job a much tidier one than one that uses traditional building materials and techniques.

Already Insulated – as SIPs are already comprised of insulation, so no further cavity insulation is needed, thus meaning less expenditure and also less work is required from the construction team. This prefabricated insulation is also a cleaner option than insulating the building during construction.

Reduce Bills – by having quality insulation already in place, then in comparison t0 a house that uses traditional building materials, you are going to be in a much better position in terms of the warmth and heat retention properties for your home, meaning that you are unlikely to need to use as much energy.

Space- SIPs means that you don’t need to have roof trusses as it allows you to create additional space and essentially an extra room. This can also help with creating more floor space elsewhere, as in comparison to traditional building materials, SIPs allow for less space to be taken up but provide the same external dimensions as brick or stone would....

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The housing market has little to do with bricks and mortar, housing people, energy efficiency or resilience in the face of floods. It has to do with finding a home (ha!) for the limitless credit that banks churn out.

Banks don't lend on non-standard construction for the most part and while there's profit to be made from inflating the value of the existing stock they're unlikely to take on more risk. Innovation stifled; capitalism used to be the lubricant for innovation but alas no more.

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In the UK successful innovation is just more competition for the banks and their control - so they actively deter it partly through their lending policies.

Edited by billybong

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The housing market has little to do with bricks and mortar, housing people, energy efficiency or resilience in the face of floods. It has to do with finding a home (ha!) for the limitless credit that banks churn out.

Banks don't lend on non-standard construction for the most part and while there's profit to be made from inflating the value of the existing stock they're unlikely to take on more risk. Innovation stifled; capitalism used to be the lubricant for innovation but alas no more.

I didn't realise steel frames and /or Sips panels were non-standard construction, as most commercial building and many student type flat blocks are made from them. Presumably banks lend on those.

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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I don't think many builders question traditional building methods. It probably doesn't even enter their heads as bricks are what they've always used. Buyers and banks/mortgage lenders have the same conservative viewpoint and worry that anything a bit different won't sell.

I would probably buy a new-build with in-built solar panels as standard for instance but I bet it will be years yet before that becomes mainstream.

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Was watching some new builds go up near near me in a former vicarage garden, and they seem to be largely timber frame construction with considerable use of insulation panels in exterior and interior walls.

The bricks now seem to be for purely cladding the exterior, probably something to do with mortgageability?

Edited by RentierParadisio

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Was watching some new builds go up near near me in a former vicarage garden, and they seem to be largely timber frame construction with considerable use of insulation panels in exterior and interior walls.

The bricks now seem to be for purely cladding the exterior, probably something to do with mortgageability?

I suspect that it's more that the people buying identikit mortgage boxes expect them to be brick effect on the outside...

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I suspect that it's more that the people buying identikit mortgage boxes expect them to be brick effect on the outside...

Nearby also some old 'concrete' council houses, you can tell the 'mortgaged' ones as have been reclad in brick!

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I suspect that it's more that the people buying identikit mortgage boxes expect them to be brick effect on the outside...

It's almost definitely market driven. Grand Designs etc has made a bit of an impact but we are still laughably conservative as a nation when it comes to architecture. Perhaps that's another side effect of our failed property market, but then take a look at Japan in comparison....

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Bricks have a higher heat capacity than SIPS. They heat up during the day, then cool slowly.

Perhaps concrete clad SIPS would be a good alternative?

A very valid point. In a hot season, having the brick walls as a thermal bridge to the cooler ground is also an advantage (assuming the ground is cooler) .

There are Trombe walls as well

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trombe_wall.

Insulated shutters that come down over walls at night, to insulate walls heated by the sun in the daytime, so heating the house.

Though water tank walls can be used instead of brick . Great book on subject is "Movable insulation"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0878573100

Edit: the cost of the cheapest 1220 x 2440mm, 100mm thick Sips on ebay has dropped 5% to £52

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Structural-Insulated-Panels-SIPS-Self-Build-For-Garden-Room-Studio-Office-Garage-/181961559956?hash=item2a5dc10f94:g:9uIAAOxydlFS3oMO

shorter 100mm SIP Panel - 1.22m Wide x 2.18m Long are now £45

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Structural-Insulated-Panels-SIPs-Self-Build-for-Garden-Office-Studio-Garage-/201482286835?hash=item2ee947b6f3:g:6E0AAMXQ1d1THXL1

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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Brick laying is still labour intensive so in a make job economy it's helps to keep the unemployment figures down. It's still an acceptable look, it's durable and forms the outer skin of the cavity wall mainly needed to prevent dampness - so it's also functional. There are alternative outer skins of course but brick is still popular.

Seeing as the numbers of new houses being built has been a serious problem for decades now you would at least have expected to see some smoothing stockpiling system to be in place (they managed to stockpile coal before the big miners strike so they are capable of working out the logistics) - after all they claim to be able to predict population growth pretty accurately and there are plenty of computers to work things out with. Bricks could have been stockpiled on the hoarded land as they don't tend to deteriorate and they're not that easy to steal in bulk - generally speaking.

But no yet again it probably doesn't suit the brick makers and builders bottom line so it's no plan ahead, it's still all going from crisis to crisis and still asking people to wait for reasonable accommodation and pay through the nose for tiny homes etc etc.

Edited by billybong

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I couldn't get a builder to quote for building my extension with SIPs.

Some of them hadn't even heard of them. They'd rather move tonnes of bricks, cement etc 100m or so to the site then carry 5 panels.

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I couldn't get a builder to quote for building my extension with SIPs.

Some of them hadn't even heard of them. They'd rather move tonnes of bricks, cement etc 100m or so to the site then carry 5 panels.

If you're asking a house builder that's not too surprising...

You need a commercial/small industrial builder

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If you're asking a house builder that's not too surprising...

You need a commercial/small industrial builder

Would a commercial/small industrial builder be willing to do a very small job like a house extension? Also, would they be familiar with domestic building regulations?

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Would a commercial/small industrial builder be willing to do a very small job like a house extension? Also, would they be familiar with domestic building regulations?

Commercial builders wanted £60-70k for a 7mx3m extension using Sips - build time 2 weeks

£35k from a bricks and mortar builder for a 9 week build.

Big gap in the market for a SIPs extension company for domestic market - the ones that exist don't have the capacity.

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Commercial builders wanted £60-70k for a 7mx3m extension using Sips - build time 2 weeks

£35k from a bricks and mortar builder for a 9 week build.

Big gap in the market for a SIPs extension company for domestic market - the ones that exist don't have the capacity.

I wonder if they're only economical for very large builds?

Or perhaps they have a higher capital cost but lower future heating costs, something home owners are less likely to future discount unlike businesses?

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I wonder if they're only economical for very large builds?

Or perhaps they have a higher capital cost but lower future heating costs, something home owners are less likely to future discount unlike businesses?

I spoke to a few companies. They are all keen to do domestic but I just think they don't know the market. They are set up for multi-million pound projects. Just don't think they want to get people to small sites for a few days. Hence massively over the top prices. If small contractors could work with the manufacturers them it might be best all round.

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I spoke to a few companies. They are all keen to do domestic but I just think they don't know the market. They are set up for multi-million pound projects. Just don't think they want to get people to small sites for a few days. Hence massively over the top prices. If small contractors could work with the manufacturers them it might be best all round.

Think this is broadly correct. I did manage to get some quotes for a house extension and they were pretty much the same as a standard build - the argument being that SIPs are a lot quicker and more convenient, so no need to discount. Seemed like a crazy way to market them.

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Googled for "SIPS extension company" and found a few I think.

Here is one

http://www.homeextensions.co.uk/structural-insulated-panels-sips/

In fact an old boomer bungalow up the road from me, was massively extended using them. Didn't know what they were at the time. Wish I'd taken photo's!

Edited by RentierParadisio

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Worth mentioning that Sips remove the brick cavity wall debacle

Will The Cavity-Wall Insulation Scandal Rival Ppi?

as mentioned here, on "Hey, Fancy Buying A Straw House?" thread, I looked into Modcell & phoned them.

I too looked into Modcell. they wanted £400 to £700 per sq ft (edit: I think I meant to say sq. metre here ) for the wood framed straw bale panels

wtf !

They said they spent £4.5 million getting the wood framed straw bales through regs, despite it having been around for 100's of yrs .

If you look at their completed projects, most are schools & public funded buildings, who else would pay these extortionate prices

http://www.modcell.c...leted-projects/

I couldn't get a builder to quote for building my extension with SIPs.

Some of them hadn't even heard of them. They'd rather move tonnes of bricks, cement etc 100m or so to the site then carry 5 panels.

Depressing, isn't it. if only you could get an eco vat discount for not wasting all that oil transoprting the brick weight about...

Brick laying is still labour intensive so in a make job economy it's helps to keep the unemployment figures down. It's still an acceptable look, it's durable and forms the outer skin of the cavity wall mainly needed to prevent dampness - so it's also functional. There are alternative outer skins of course but brick is still popular.

Seeing as the numbers of new houses being built has been a serious problem for decades now you would at least have expected to see some smoothing stockpiling system to be in place (they managed to stockpile coal before the big miners strike so they are capable of working out the logistics) - after all they claim to be able to predict population growth pretty accurately and there are plenty of computers to work things out with. Bricks could have been stockpiled on the hoarded land as they don't tend to deteriorate and they're not that easy to steal in bulk - generally speaking.

But no yet again it probably doesn't suit the brick makers and builders bottom line so it's no plan ahead, it's still all going from crisis to crisis and still asking people to wait for reasonable accommodation and pay through the nose for tiny homes etc etc.

Perhaps we'll see more sips if the brick stocks run low ?

I spoke to a few companies. They are all keen to do domestic but I just think they don't know the market. They are set up for multi-million pound projects. Just don't think they want to get people to small sites for a few days. Hence massively over the top prices. If small contractors could work with the manufacturers them it might be best all round.

Self build seems a massive market for sips. I've seen loads of Y/T vids on diy'ers doing it.

Getting the hi-ab lorry which delivers the sips to hoist them into place for the roof seem ideal. Saves on expensive cranes.

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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Perhaps hinted at upthread, but wouldn't these be ideal to build a load of council houses with?

No need for the property to be mortgageable and lots could be built by a large contractor quickly.

For that to happen, first of all you'd need a government that isn't ideologically opposed to public housing, and preferably one that supports it, in po!icy and in practice. Edited by Snugglybear

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