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Taxman Is Touting The Idea Of Quarterly Tax Returns For Landlords And Small Businesses

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Fill in your tax returns FOUR TIMES every year: Self-employed workers, landlords and small business owners faced with 'strangling' quarterly returns
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Switching them to quarterly returns will bring people like Joel Riley, 26, and girlfriend Mary Keir, into line with big firms but financial experts say it will add more red tape for small companies.

This seems a crazy idea and a lot of work for small businesses but I suppose the idea will be to force these people out so big business can take over?

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Fill in your tax returns FOUR TIMES every year: Self-employed workers, landlords and small business owners faced with 'strangling' quarterly returns

Switching them to quarterly returns will bring people like Joel Riley, 26, and girlfriend Mary Keir, into line with big firms but financial experts say it will add more red tape for small companies.

This seems a crazy idea and a lot of work for small businesses but I suppose the idea will be to force these people out so big business can take over?

Ltd companies have to put their wages in every month to HMRC.

So it's not putting anyone in line with anyone.

If you run payroll yourself, you’ll need to report your employees’ payments and deductions to HMRC on or before each payday.

https://www.gov.uk/paye-for-employers

By small companies I assume they mean the self-employed.

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One of the only ways of escape from the 0 hours hell for many people has been to go self employed.Obvious the government want to put a stop to that and force small people back into employment and let the big boys have the market.

Notice the limit will be £10k,more reason to keep under that and pay nothing to these robber barons.

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I would read this as a 'We need to money ASAP!' rather than some sort of Orwelian control thing.

And its a push to get as much digitised as possible and running smoother, and away from paper ASAP.

If this stops people beomign small self employed business for TCs and the like then good. There's far too many people who should never have become a business being encouraged to setup in some sort of pie-in-the-sky business by some thick bint down the dole hole.

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He is only testing the water....

The only people in favour of this will be accountants as it immediately increases their work flow.

My (small business) partnership makes about £35k if he goes down this path then I will do my own quarterly tax returned and circumvent the accountant.

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He is only testing the water....

The only people in favour of this will be accountants as it immediately increases their work flow.

My (small business) partnership makes about £35k if he goes down this path then I will do my own quarterly tax returned and circumvent the accountant.

Wierdly, I've heard a radio ad for an accountancy body.

It was one Absolute 80s or Planet Rock this morning.

AFAICT accountancy is getting hollowed out by software, at the top and the bottom.

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And I doubt its touting or a consultancy process.

They are going to do this. They might back down and go to 6 monthly.

UKGOV wants the money! Yesterday!!!

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And I doubt its touting or a consultancy process.

They are going to do this. They might back down and go to 6 monthly.

UKGOV wants the money! Yesterday!!!

I'm wondering if they want the cash up front and let the individual claim back overpaid taxes by rebates?

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And I doubt its touting or a consultancy process.

They are going to do this. They might back down and go to 6 monthly.

UKGOV wants the money! Yesterday!!!

Perhaps indicative of the fact HMG has 'cash flow problems'. I assume many businesses will arrange their affairs so profits all fall in one quarter rendering the exercise not only pointless and costly but ultimately unproductive.

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I'm wondering if they want the cash up front and let the individual claim back overpaid taxes by rebates?

Seeing OT and DO tax codes being used when working PAYE short term jobs and was thinking exactly the same ,never seen them until the beginning of the last tax year ,are they new codes? it`s definitely got a wiff of pay now claim back later about it

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Perhaps indicative of the fact HMG has 'cash flow problems'. I assume many businesses will arrange their affairs so profits all fall in one quarter rendering the exercise not only pointless and costly but ultimately unproductive.

Agreed. The creative accounting possibilities have already been worked out.

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I would read this as a 'We need to money ASAP!' rather than some sort of Orwelian control thing.

And its a push to get as much digitised as possible and running smoother, and away from paper ASAP.

If this stops people beomign small self employed business for TCs and the like then good. There's far too many people who should never have become a business being encouraged to setup in some sort of pie-in-the-sky business by some thick bint down the dole hole.

I suspect that the target are the ' self employed contractors' who are in essence little more than temporary employees of the businesses where they work. Loads of these in the IT sector who essentially turn up and do the same type of the work as the permanent employees with whom they work. Apart from the limitations of the terms of the contracts many use an Employers premises, computers etc to work and are in essence supplying little more than labour and skills for a fixed term.

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And I doubt its touting or a consultancy process.

They are going to do this. They might back down and go to 6 monthly.

UKGOV wants the money! Yesterday!!!

They already get it in 6 Monthly increments. Tax Due (6 Months adjusted) is paid on 31st Jan, 50% of the forecast figure (from the previous years) is paid up front on July 31st....

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OT codes were around in the pre computer days when I worked for the old Inland Revenue in the 1980s. Essentially it means no free pay or allowances. Back then if you signed a a P46 stating your temporary job was your only employment then the employer would put you on a Week 1 or Month 1 basis ( i.e. you got 1/52 or 1/12 of your allowance to offset against earnings when paid but no cumulative adjustments. If you signed that you had another job then you were taxed at OT or BR rates. I gather the P46 has now been replaced by a 'starter checklist' whatever that is.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/paye-starter-checklist

Edited by stormymonday_2011

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OT codes were around in the pre computer days when I worked for the old Inland Revenue in the 1980s. Essentially it means no free pay. Back then if you signed a a P46 stating your temporary job was your only employment then the employer would put you on a Week 1 or Month 1 basis ( i.e. you got 1/52 0r 1/12 of your allowance to offset against earnings when paid but no cumulative adjustments. I gather this has now been replaced by a 'starter checklist' whatever that is.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/paye-starter-checklist

Interesting always had a BR code if no P46 was submitted now it seems to go br for a while then either OT or DO (i suspect this is determined by earnings at that ponit ) never had a DO or OT code before the last tax year ,and if you land on a DO code HMRC are not in any hurry to rectify it when a P46 is submitted

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IT contractors also get no holiday pay, no sick pay, pay for their own training, pay for insurance, pay accountant, get no pension etc. I could go on.

This argument has been going on since the days of the ark. None of the above necessarily qualify as a contract for services since many PAYE contract of service employees on zero hours and part time or temporary contracts are in exactly the same position. Fact is most IT consultants supply just skills and labour. Very few carry any risk or financial penalty for project non delivery. Nor do many supply premises or equipment etc. In addition they are often required to follow exactly the same corporate procedures regarding design, programming standards, testing and configuration management as PAYE staff so they exercise relatively little control over their work pattern. They should be under no illusion that the government has got them in the cross hairs and will be seeking tax from them more frequently. Edited by stormymonday_2011

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This argument has been going on since the days of the ark. None of the above necessarily qualify as a contract for services since many PAYE contract of service employees on zero hours and part time or temporary contracts are in exactly the same position. Fact is most IT consultants supply just skills and labour. Very few carry any risk or financial penalty for project non delivery. Nor do many supply premises or equipment etc. In addition they are often required to follow exactly the same corporate procedures regarding design, programming standards, testing and configuration management as PAYE staff so they exercise relatively little control over their work pattern. They should be under no illusion that the government has got them in the cross hairs and will be seeking tax from them more frequently.

Do not take this as tax advice but if I were an IT contractor - as described above - I'd be taking the odd day to do training - even if I was getting sod all money for it. Not doing it for free, just to get another, connected income strea mthrough the books in the year. Equally, Id probably be lookng at providing some form of documetnation - amazon e book would be good.

Edited by spyguy

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At the very least, I'd be looking to form a parternship with someone I knew and trusted. Just swapping around warm bodies ought to be enough.

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Ltd companies have to put their wages in every month to HMRC.

Quarterly for small Ltd Cos and you are just sending a cheque on a payment book not doing a full tax return, it is not exactly difficult.

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Without intending to take this thread off at a tangent.......

What's the legal position for a self employed/'one man band' Ltd company (or indeed a Sole Trader) that 'outsources' workload to others - but treats them as self employed contractors - in an effort to absolve said company from all this frequent and regular notifying HMRC of payroll/wages ???

Presumably IF said contractors are not used month in month out without break , then they really can be claimed to be just that - contractors. And HMRC can do nowt about it?! What is the safe minimum 'break' in use of their services that would be required to meet this objective?

Let's say, for example, you want to employ someone full time but want, for the time being, to avoid all the red tape and various regulatory responsibilities of taking on a full time PAYE employee. You agree an annual salary that will effectively include, say, one month annual paid holiday - but they work for you for, say for simplicity of illustration, 5.5 months without break, then take 1 month break, then work another 5.5 months (total 1 year). Would that ploy work to fend off any HMRC claim that said contractor is, in effect, an employee?

What sort of work 'pattern' must be used as a minimum to escape HMRC accusation of in fact having a full time employee?

Edited by anonguest

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I don't think it sounds like a bad idea in principle.

How many of these small businesses / self employed contractors / startups go bust owing thousands to the taxman, then start up again and repeat? It would stop the paying last years tax bill this year scenario, which is the real reason small businesses will hate it - that tax owed won't be available for them to spend for year before being 'due' next year.

If done properly it could be brought into line with VAT and in our computerised age surely it's not that hard to extract a few figures and type them into a computer? unless you're one of the carrier bag full of scraps of paper and receipts handed to a bookeeper once of year type of 'businesses' of course.

That said, I'm sure HMRC will make it harder than it needs to be and utter chaos for many months / years. It's how they roll.

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Wierdly, I've heard a radio ad for an accountancy body.

It was one Absolute 80s or Planet Rock this morning.

AFAICT accountancy is getting hollowed out by software, at the top and the bottom.

I would have thought that bookkeeping would be more or less dead but competent accountancy more in demand than ever. They are not the same thing.

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I'm wondering if they want the cash up front and let the individual claim back overpaid taxes by rebates?

That's what I have to do every year.

Quarterly tax returns would be great for my cash flow. And would even make tax planning easier. Bring it on!

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I'm wondering if they want the cash up front and let the individual claim back overpaid taxes by rebates?

They did that to me once - made me pay tax in advance. As I was primarily PAYE this was nonsense but I still had to cough up and then claim it back a year later.

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