Just How Incomptetent Are Microsoft?

[sPinwheel]

Bloated and inefficient. And the wrong people with crap ideas have too much power.

[LiveinHope]

Bloated and inefficient. And the wrong people with crap ideas have too much power.

This is a thread about Microsoft, not British politics.

[MrPin]

In a World of tablets and phones, not many people NEED a PC anymore. It's become a consumer device, and the OS choice doesn't matter, as long as the browser and email work, and it plays videos.

[justthisbloke]

I've been using Linux at home for several years now. It does everything I need without a fraction of the grief I hear about from Windows installers.

At work, we're still on Windows of course. An old version, I assume, as it still looks like Windows - with a task bar along the bottom. I find it far more problematic from a user point of view than Linux. Heartily sick of its general sluggishness, "Not Responding" messages in title bars, and Explorer just going black from time to time.

[Riedquat]

Funny thing is, MS only make 10% turnover from Windows - 2/3rds+ from Office, Server and software tools. Why do they innovate the Windows interface at all? Why not just leave it at 7 + security updates?

"Innovate" implies "improve". What we've got is just change for the sake of change, lapped up by those people who confuse "new" with "better" and who think change is good (they're usually the type of people who thinks "judging things on their own merits == luddite").

As far as I can tell they're increasingly expecting people to rely on search facilities, which is a godawful, cumbersome, clunky way of dealing with being hopelessly disorganised and being unwilling to learn how to do things logically. That isn't innovation or improvement and is the type of reason that "progress" means "fvcking everything up".

[MrPin]

I'm posting this from an Ubuntu Linux machine. My main laptop has Win 7 Pro. This is my sofa loafer machine I do all my shopping from. It doesn't update any more as this version is now out of support, but none of the updates ever broke it.

[RichB]

I just installed this latest Win 10 update 36 hours ago - supposedly the first version of this reactivated all the spyware.

So I installed it, rebooted and it informed me that it had removed spybot and some Dell utilities because it decided that they did not work with Windows 10. Didn't ask me - just did it, even though they worked fine.

It also reactivated all the Microsoft Win 10 spyware settings.

It also disabled me being able to login to Skype with my hotmail account - only a Skype account. So I had to uninstall Skype, reboot and then reinstall it... which I am currently doing.

What a piece of Sh*t Windows 10 is.

You are complaining that it removed the Dell root kits that Dell didn't know how to get rid of?

[MrPin]

You are complaining that it removed the Dell root kits that Dell didn't know how to get rid of?

These laptop manufacturers are "cheeky b8ggers". Land you with all manner of crapware!

[dgul]

"Innovate" implies "improve". What we've got is just change for the sake of change, lapped up by those people who confuse "new" with "better" and who think change is good (they're usually the type of people who thinks "judging things on their own merits == luddite").

As far as I can tell they're increasingly expecting people to rely on search facilities, which is a godawful, cumbersome, clunky way of dealing with being hopelessly disorganised and being unwilling to learn how to do things logically. That isn't innovation or improvement and is the type of reason that "progress" means "fvcking everything up".

There's also the 'better for whom' aspect. Metro possibly works for people who only have one application running at the same time, and who have limited requirements (my neighbour was astonished to find you could run emails and internet at the same time... But why would you want to do that? Was the considered response). For a software developer is would seem to be a bonkers way forwards which would only make application management more complex.

The funny thing about windows (and other window managers) is that 99.9% of the time it should be out of the way, allowing you to interact with the application(s). the other 0.1% of the time it should just work in a predictable manner. Anything which is done to make the WM more pretty is just wasted effort IMO.

The different WM aspect of the different Linux distributions can make things complicated for newcomers - but at the same time if you don't like the way something is done you can go somewhere else - and the reverse - if you do something which the user doesn't like, they can (and possibly will) leave.

[Steppenpig]

There's also the 'better for whom' aspect. Metro possibly works for people who only have one application running at the same time, and who have limited requirements (my neighbour was astonished to find you could run emails and internet at the same time... But why would you want to do that? Was the considered response). For a software developer is would seem to be a bonkers way forwards which would only make application management more complex.

The weird thing is, they're going backwards. Reducing the users options to cutomise. Plus, despite seeming to be very basic, for some reason the apps take an age to launch (on my very modestly specced laptop, but even if it's faster on faster machines, there is something wrong in the design somewhere)

[Bossybabe]

Can anyone explain why I installed W10 in my Fujitsu laptop with no problem but it won't install on the Acer, from which I removed the Acer crap when I bought it?

[Byron]

Because Microsoft are incompetent

[SNACR]

These laptop manufacturers are "cheeky b8ggers". Land you with all manner of crapware!

That was a factor in tipping me towards proprietary Microsoft laptops and tablets.

[DTMark]

Microsoft are supplying an OS which works with all manner of hardware and software combinations and it's a lot more complex than, say, Apple who control the OS and the hardware and should be able to get it right.

And yet, since Apple iOS 9.something the notifications haven't worked properly and YouTube and the Halifax banking apps have a habit of just crashing and closing. I'd expect that sort of crap from Android. Which also has the problem of trying to be all things to all hardware and fails miserably at it. At least Windows is stable.

And on that note, people with Android (and Windows) phones tend to end up stuck on whatever OS release they came preinstalled with thanks to the convoluted and bizarre arrangements between the phone supplier and the hardware vendor, where patches and OS updates are expected to come from those routes - which of course doesn't happen a lot of the time because it's not worth their time to keep the OS upgraded after you've bought the kit. Leaving users with unsecure phones vulnerable to compromise.

In the meantime Apple roll out updates which, er, don't work properly even though they know the exact hardware they'll be running with.

It's like so many things these days - the rush to have the latest new thing trumps the ability to test it properly.

FWIW I find Windows 10 fine, haven't had any issues.

The mail program it comes with is dreadful - you can't even create folders to put your mail in and it has a fit when you create drafts and try to edit them later on. I have an Office subscription and so have the latest version of the "full" Outlook program but I'd have thought any other mail program would be preferable to the default one.

[SNACR]

Ever since I got the original iphone it was always a case of wondering what was going to stop working every time you updated. Having said that I had all 3 models of MDA Vario smartphones, which were a kind of iPhone forerunner, which I think were actually a rebadged HTC phones and they got faster modems on each model but much of the rest would somehow be a step back.

Bank and a handful of other apps are what forces you into updating the iPhone otherwise I'd be loathe to. It's hard to determine how critical the updates are, from a security point of view, I do feel it may be scaremongering as more people have become wise to the fact that you've only got a finite amount of updates before the hardware becomes unusable and you can't go back.

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[Riedquat]

There's also the 'better for whom' aspect. Metro possibly works for people who only have one application running at the same time, and who have limited requirements (my neighbour was astonished to find you could run emails and internet at the same time... But why would you want to do that? Was the considered response). For a software developer is would seem to be a bonkers way forwards which would only make application management more complex.

Even for such people spending a little bit of time (not much at all) learning how to use a slightly better interface isn't going to make things worse, so all you've done is drag everything down to save them that little bit of time. In any case that's why such people now have smartphones and tablets instead of a computer, because they don't need a computer. So there's even less reason to screw up the UI (and it was never all that good to begin with).

[Byron]

Yes, but my point is that Microsoft are selling to non nerds, and should remove all these problems, not increase them.

For instance Riedquat, I have no idea what UI is, furthermore, as an end user, I should not need to know.

[thecrashingisles]

It's all very well saying they shouldn't mess around with what works but they were facing an existential threat from Apple and Google so couldn't afford to stand still. They're actually getting pretty close to realising the vision of the same OS on PCs, tablets and phones.

[onlyme2]

It's all very well saying they shouldn't mess around with what works but they were facing an existential threat from Apple and Google so couldn't afford to stand still. They're actually getting pretty close to realising the vision of the same OS on PCs, tablets and phones.

But destroying the usability / usefulness of a core component like email that might make say 10-30% of day to day usage of a working desktop PC.

Total incompetence,

[dgul]

Even for such people spending a little bit of time (not much at all) learning how to use a slightly better interface isn't going to make things worse, so all you've done is drag everything down to save them that little bit of time. In any case that's why such people now have smartphones and tablets instead of a computer, because they don't need a computer. So there's even less reason to screw up the UI (and it was never all that good to begin with).

Some people really can't cope with small change in the UI. I tried to get my aunt to use openoffice when she retired (to replace the MSOffice she had had at work), but she couldn't cope because the file.. menu options were in a different order! What is amazing is that the challenge of a new UI is always put forwards as the problem with going to Linux, but MS just keep on changing things and people just keep on using it. They really couldn't get away with any of these things if they weren't so dominant.

It's all very well saying they shouldn't mess around with what works but they were facing an existential threat from Apple and Google so couldn't afford to stand still.

I was being (in my way) a bit tongue-in-cheek - they make 90% of their business from everything other than the Windows division, yet the Windows division takes a relatively large proportion of R&D expenditure. The point is that they need the captive audience from the UI to get them sales in (particularly) the office division. If they did an on-the-face-of-it-sensible business division to sell off Windows, and just stick to Office, Server and Software tools (where all the profit comes from) then the newly independent Windows could bundle OO, Apache and GCC to compete with Apple/Linux - and pretty soon the captive market of the office-MS would be seriously damaged.

I agree that they need to continually innovate to protect them from these threats - but it isn't to make the user any better off.

They're actually getting pretty close to realising the vision of the same OS on PCs, tablets and phones.

I'd argue a bit more than that - we're now getting an increasing % of the population who are pretty good at handling different interfaces - what with the changes at MS, and experience with iOS or Android (let alone exposure to ChromeOS and all the disparate Linux, etc). I reckon we're getting close to a point where the majority of people won't care that much about the UI... I'm not sure how this will impact on people's attitudes to MS Metro etc.

[thecrashingisles]

I'd argue a bit more than that - we're now getting an increasing % of the population who are pretty good at handling different interfaces - what with the changes at MS, and experience with iOS or Android (let alone exposure to ChromeOS and all the disparate Linux, etc). I reckon we're getting close to a point where the majority of people won't care that much about the UI... I'm not sure how this will impact on people's attitudes to MS Metro etc.

It's about the platform, not the UI. What matters is access to the same functionality and data across different devices.

Apple seem to be going down the road of saying that for the average punter, an iOS device is all you ever need.

[SHERWICK]

My laptop suddenly decided to update itself to Windows 10 last week. As soon as I tried to turn the laptop on afterwards, I got a blank screen. Did some research on the phone and it was because something had gone wrong in the install. So I booted in safe mode and somehow found an option to keep all my data but remove everything else on the laptop. Windows 10 then worked but all my MS Office suite, Skype etc. were all gone. Had to search all over the house for the MS Office disks to reinstall, then reinstalled everything else. Now my wifi keeps dropping, for which there is no solution it seems. (I've had a look online and loads of people have posted this issue, on the MS site forums as well, for the past few months - buy MS hasn't bothered to answer questions or solve the issue.

Utterly pathetic.

[stormymonday_2011]

Some people really can't cope with small change in the UI. I tried to get my aunt to use openoffice when she retired (to replace the MSOffice she had had at work), but she couldn't cope because the file.. menu options were in a different order! What is amazing is that the challenge of a new UI is always put forwards as the problem with going to Linux, but MS just keep on changing things and people just keep on using it. They really couldn't get away with any of these things if they weren't so dominant.

I was being (in my way) a bit tongue-in-cheek - they make 90% of their business from everything other than the Windows division, yet the Windows division takes a relatively large proportion of R&D expenditure. The point is that they need the captive audience from the UI to get them sales in (particularly) the office division. If they did an on-the-face-of-it-sensible business division to sell off Windows, and just stick to Office, Server and Software tools (where all the profit comes from) then the newly independent Windows could bundle OO, Apache and GCC to compete with Apple/Linux - and pretty soon the captive market of the office-MS would be seriously damaged.

I agree that they need to continually innovate to protect them from these threats - but it isn't to make the user any better off.

I'd argue a bit more than that - we're now getting an increasing % of the population who are pretty good at handling different interfaces - what with the changes at MS, and experience with iOS or Android (let alone exposure to ChromeOS and all the disparate Linux, etc). I reckon we're getting close to a point where the majority of people won't care that much about the UI... I'm not sure how this will impact on people's attitudes to MS Metro etc.

You would have thought that as the OS was the key to selling the other products they would not f*ck about with it too much. In my experience they wilfully make things difficult for users. This is not just confined to Windows itself but also to other MS products. A good OS should essentially be invisible to the end user. Far too many Windows issues end up with inevitable Registry hacks attempting to fix problems including it appears the current Windows 10 WiFi problems. That sort of flaw with a key component in a modern software system should never have made it to a RTM version of the product.

[spyguy]

You would have thought that as the OS was the key to selling the other products they would not f*ck about with it too much. In my experience they wilfully make things difficult for users. This is not just confined to Windows itself but also to other MS products. A good OS should essentially be invisible to the end user. Far too many Windows issues end up with inevitable Registry hacks attempting to fix problems including it appears the current Windows 10 WiFi problems. That sort of flaw with a key component in a modern software system should never have made it to a RTM version of the product.

There is and has been something going wrong at MS for the last 10 years.

Part of it is open source, part is google, a lot of it is MS.

I'm fed up with MS messing up their APIs year after year.

Keeping up with the DDK APIs is pain in the ass.

MS make supporting anything beyond their current batch of products very hard.

15 years ago, you easily justify WS2000 for a deployment. It worked, it was stable, it cost ~£70.

MS2012R2 retails at around £700. Its not too stable either.

[Riedquat]

Yes, but my point is that Microsoft are selling to non nerds, and should remove all these problems, not increase them.

For instance Riedquat, I have no idea what UI is, furthermore, as an end user, I should not need to know.

The user interface, i.e. the bit you mess around with - where the buttons are, where the options are, and so on. The location of the "Post" button I'll press in a minute is part of HPC's user interface. So as an end user it's pretty important to you.