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Btl Investors: 'let Us Off Capital Gains Tax And We'll Sell To First-Time Buyers'

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Survey says that people more likely to sell asset if the cash they receive in return is increased. What a stunning insight....

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Good to know that we are now getting down to brass tacks- leveraged bTLers don't have a pot to pi$$ in and their only route out is the manner they have become accustomed to via housing benfit - grubbing for more handouts from the taxpayer.

Bankruptcy is a good route out too.

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I've got a better idea.

Why not give the CGT paid by the blter to the purchaser if they are a ftb- still not equitable (as the btler gets the majority of the unearned gain), but a slightly less mad idea than that proposed.

If the btlers are holding back supply encourage them to sell - a special holding tax would do the trick. No need for carrots where the donkey is already full of carrots - the stick is what is needed...

[i've seen it said that CGT is a problem tax because it discourages the eventual sale of the property - in that case just introduce a asset gains tax where for housing people pay the tax annually based on an index gain. Even allow them to offset capital gains taxes elsewhere against any losses on the index. That would stop these sorts of machinations]

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Upto now by refinancing you could withdraw cash tax free. This is now changing slightly. Allow roll over relief would be another good idea to give the market some more liquidity.

I know many who now dont sell their first flat, why would you? When other investments are so risky and poor.

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If Gov/HMRC lets off 1 BTLer from the CGT obligation, then Gov/HMRC should pay the FTB buyer double the amount.

Fair is fair.

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[i've seen it said that CGT is a problem tax because it discourages the eventual sale of the property - in that case just introduce a asset gains tax where for housing people pay the tax annually based on an index gain. Even allow them to offset capital gains taxes elsewhere against any losses on the index. That would stop these sorts of machinations]

Very few BTLers expected to ever sell and pay it. Now enough at the margin look at their rolling tax-obligations, and under finance strain to sell. And the question is what the market will pay. Markets move at margin.

I don't fancy your idea because it stops values moving at the margin for value discovery. All so one or two FTBs can pay an inflated price, and market doesn't correct.

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And there was me thinking that these "entrepreneurs" were in it for the long term....oh well ...

As usual, the smokescreen is one of the unleveraged long-termer wanting to sell up, but we all know which group are really lobbying for this- those who have remortgaged and are now unable to meet obligations to the taxman in the event of a sale, a sale which will be forced upon them by Osborne's partial removal of tax relief. And there are shedloads of leveraged types, must be multiples of the number of unleveraged sorts. By definition they own many more properties too.

Edited by Cry and Regret

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As ridiculous as the idea sounds, is it really beyond the realms of possibility?

Look at some of the other schemes the government has brought in that have spunked tax payers money to 'help' FTBs

None is so much more ridiculous than something along these lines

Sure, it would need some working on and would be open to abuse, but that is nothing new to complications and manipulations of the tax code

I have underestimated the lengths that governments would go to in order to try to make their ideas work before and I am harder to surprise now!

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There will be quite a few who do decide to sell and I'm quite sure there are unlevereged landlords who would like to sell too, to sell at the levels reached now and pocket the gains. No doubt some will go bankrupt too. However what all these issues discuss is the distribution of existing houses. None of the policies or tax changes is going to actually significantly increase the number of houses in the UK, which is what is really needed.

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As ridiculous as the idea sounds, is it really beyond the realms of possibility?

Look at some of the other schemes the government has brought in that have spunked tax payers money to 'help' FTBs

None is so much more ridiculous than something along these lines

Sure, it would need some working on and would be open to abuse, but that is nothing new to complications and manipulations of the tax code

I have underestimated the lengths that governments would go to in order to try to make their ideas work before and I am harder to surprise now!

You can help keep the hope up on 118 with your other portfolio landlord pals.

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There will be quite a few who do decide to sell and I'm quite sure there are unlevereged landlords who would like to sell too, to sell at the levels reached now and pocket the gains. No doubt some will go bankrupt too. However what all these issues discuss is the distribution of existing houses. None of the policies or tax changes is going to actually significantly increase the number of houses in the UK, which is what is really needed.

We need a redistribution, via allowing the market to find its balance, including all the larger family homes, lived in by 1 or 2 pensioners. FCA is now making noises about that.

Maybe you will sell your BTL(s) too (?).

Too many houses have been built and bought by BTLers. Demand feeds back on itself that way to this 'shortage', and has in opinion of quite a few hpcers, a lot of the newbuild stock has been built (thrown up) in mind for the BTLer buyer rather than family OO buyer.

If CGT is due for those who want/must sell... then pay it. Not all change the rules, years/decades after life of rentierism and helping to fuelling the HPI/shortage.

The Times

January 1 2015

Home ownership levels in Britain are about to fall behind France for the first time after a decade-long surge in buy-to-let lending that has pushed more people into the rental sector.

[...]Departmental figures show that the vast majority of new housing in the UK since the turn of the millennium has been bought by landlords. Between 2000 and 2012, the private rented sector has accounted for some 2.5 million of the extra homes. Only 400,000 have been bought by occupiers.

http://www.thetimes....f4bb875d204d1d6

Edited by Venger

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I wonder if there is any legal way in which RTB can be extended to private tenants? Surely if it can be forced upon private entities (Housing Associations) it should be extended to all private entities? It would actually be good for the Tories as it would create a huge amount of Tory voters (private tenants) able to buy their homes at a discount whilst punishing (the unpopular and small in number) landlords. Could keep the Tories in power for the next million years :lol:. The only one not happy would be their Landlord Housing Minister.

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Dyson in the BTLelegraph... he's really going all out for the BTLers.

BTW, the dream of Redwood coming to the rescue of the BTLers seems to have turned cold. You're caught in the snare. Danced into it.

Ros . says:
06/10/2015 at 18:46

Reply to the comment left by “KATHY MILLER” at “06/10/2015 – 18:34“:

Interesting article Kathy. Maybe some Property118ers could make some comments on there – John Redwood might then see them.
I wrote him a long letter today – sent by snail post, in the hope that something he can hold in his hand will be more likely to be read.


Manchester Landlord says:
07/10/2015 at 08:14

Reply to the comment left by “Ros .” at “06/10/2015 – 23:48“:

Hi Ros. Here is John Redwoods reply:

Thank you for your email. Yea I understand the point you are making, but I think the Chancellor has determined to do this despite the consequences you cite. I am not myself on the Bill Committee, when it meets upstairs.

Sent from my iPad


http://www.property118.com/budget-2015-landlords-reactions/76164/comment-page-497/#comment-66050
http://www.property118.com/budget-2015-landlords-reactions/76164/comment-page-498/#comment-66067

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I am not advocating the CGT exemption idea

Just saying that it really wouldn't surprise me what the government pulled out of the bag next in its quest to 'help' FTBs

I would never have believed SMI, HTB, '£1m family home IHT exemption', RTB, HTB ISA either.... until they were announced

Like many here, I want government intervention to stop and be undone, not added to.

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Alan Ward, chairman of the trade body, said many long-term investors "need a way out of the market".

Classic isn't it?

What he actually means is that these so called "investors" need a way out of making a loss.

There are plenty of ways out of the market - bankruptcy for example - These people hate capitalism and the free market, they all want a bailout from the taxpayer.

Why should I pay for your bad investment, Alan?

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If you can't afford your tax bill then you're bankrupt. Time to call in the receivers. Anything else is completely unacceptable.

These landlords have already had billions in public money through housing benefit, favourable tax treatment, and massive forbearance on their loans due to the bank bailouts and the nationalisation of the dodgy loan books. Never mind sucking the life chances of their young tenants dry.

And even with all that they're telling us they can't make a profit and a CGT exemption is the only way they can 'exit' their position? What kind of idiots are these people? Why have imbeciles like these been allowed to muck up Britain's housing market?

How on earth can people be so stupid as to spend (sorry 'reinvest') their entire capital gain, as if no-one had ever heard of tax?!

I hope Osborne takes these benefit scroungers and tax-dodgers for everything they've got.

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I am not advocating the CGT exemption idea

Just saying that it really wouldn't surprise me what the government pulled out of the bag next in its quest to 'help' FTBs

I would never have believed SMI, HTB, '£1m family home IHT exemption', RTB, HTB ISA either.... until they were announced

Like many here, I want government intervention to stop and be undone, not added to.

Agreed to all that.

Give this guy some slack. So he's a BTLer. So what? It's his choice and he sees it for what it is.

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