Is A Degree Worth It

[AgeingBabyBoomer]

Interesting comments,

I did my degree in the eighties,just before the loans came in.

At that time Thatcher was cutting budgets to the bone and Unis

were forced to cut back on Science and Engineering and offer

'cheaper to run' courses.

The ramoing up of the student bubble had begun, though I think

in my time only 15% of people went to uni.

Choice of degree does matter -they ar enot equal.

On joining the wonderful world of work, armed with my II(1)

in Chemistry I was immdeitely dissapointed.

Most of my peers who had not gone to uni were earning more, had more

experience. and most scarily could do their jobs wih ease.

I found it difficult to concentrate my emergies, and could not understand

why my three years of study pplus a year in industry didn't sseem to

have any relevance to the project I was working on.

I quickly realised that the learning had not stopped, only just begun.

Degrees only open doors, you have to make the effort to walk through

them, and work afterwards.

I would say my degree got me the interviews, but I won jobs as a result

of my other skils, and after a while my experiences.

Having said that, a 'good' degree is worth it, it proves the intellectual

wiring is in place and that you learned how to learn.

For sure you will not know everything you need to survive in life

by the time you have graduated - but if you don't know how to do

something, you now have the tools to find out.

The real benefits don't kick in until you are in your thirties MO.

ABB

(over forty now...)

[Fancypants]

Also, apart from anything else it's such a waste to have most students having two homes.

bingo!

what is most likely to change, as the country adjusts to sending 50% of it's youth on a debt-funded piss-up, is that costs will be reduced by more of the students staying at home.

The govt has successfully passed the burden of HE from the taxpayer directly onto the parents (to a greater extent than onto the graduates themselves). To make this viable in the long-term, esp as we enter choppier economic waters, you will find more students treating uni as a direct extension of school.

I have no idea how students can afford to study in London in particular. Most of the students here seem to be either foreign, or living at home with their parents.

It's no bad thing, as any of the poor buggers still living in the student slums of Headingley or south Manchester will vouch for.

I believe this is more common abroad anyway?

The days of us indulging our top 10% with a free 3yr party as part recompense for the especially responsible positions that they will eventually take up are long gone. In some respects we are persisting with an old model of HE that is simply not workable when you are sending half of 18yr olds to university, most of whom aren't especially bright...

[MrB]

You're a gloomy lot! My lad's on 45k a year, with loads of headroom above him, 3 years after graduating in IT. I dread to think what kind of job he'd have if he left school at 16.

The most frightening point in my education came about 18 months before graduating (age 21 ish) , when I realised I'd been in education in one form or another for about 16 years and i had absolutely no talent or vocation whatsoever.

I took it upon myself to improve my technical skillset in my own time(my degree was a floucey 'Business IT' type course where technical knowledge was deemed unimportant). I earn a little over half of what your son earns, which isn't too bad compared with temps etc., but it won't make up for the missed opportunity cost until I'm about 50

Most jobs in the ever growing public sector require degrees, which is another vehicle for trapping youngsters in debt to get silly phoney vacuous degrees.

[Viterbi]

I'm in the second year of a mathematics and philosophy (joint degree not some crazy subject) degree at university so thought I should provide my thoughts.

They government should turn all arts and theoretical science subjects into correspondence courses as you only need to be at a physical university if you require specialist equipment. All materials needed from libraries can be digitized and put on the Internet. The majority of research I do for essays I do online through www.athens.ac.uk. This site provide access to many of the most important journals as well as online versions of many of OUP's books.

Currently I spend about 7 months a year at uni. If I did my degree by correspondence that would equate to 21 months. Therefore most people could do a degree in two years. If people then wanted to do research degrees they would then apply to do a residential course. Universities would then become free to be more focused on research.

Also, apart from anything else it's such a waste to have most students having two homes.

You hit the nail on the head there. A few years ago I raised the question "why do students need to be on campus anymore?". Distance learning via the internet is the way to go. Lectures are obsolete. The concept of having to sit in a dreary lecture hall at 9am and copy notes off a blackboard is a concept completely past its sell by date in this day and age. In fact it is demeaning. Why not give students their lecture notes via the internet and let them work at things in their own time in the comfort of their living room? Every now and then they can have meetings with the lecturer and other students to discuss matters, but students shouldn't have to assemble at 9am every Monday morning to be talked at whilst having little chance to make their own contribution.

[Elizabeth]

It's interesting that the question has been considered as purely a financial one. Discounted cash flows less cost of investment etc.

Anybody want to stand up for the other benefits of further education?

(I'm not going too, I'm not sure there are any and I'm certain that the idea will get shot down).

Funny you say that bandy legs. On my bad days I'm bitter and twisted about the whole thing. (grumble, grumble, grumble). On my good days I realise that I broadened my knowledge and learnt ways of expressing myself and complex ways of putting together ideas, and even if I did have kidney failure due to lack of sleep during my honour year, I learned how to follow through on a big project with a high degree of self reliance, which I had never done before. As a result of the training I ordering my thinking seemingly naturally even though thinking is a skill and requires technique and practice.

These are all what we call "soft outcomes" where I work. Which may or may not lead to "hard outcomes". ie. better pay, more complex jobs, greater respect.

Its difficult to attribute cause to effect. Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't. It wasn't a requirement for the job, but would I be able to be as effective? Honestly I don't think so because I remember writing my first essay. It took a week and it was rubbish - I can now write one good report a day of that length.

Now all I need to do is learn how to write in plain English (I got criticised for that today) but then I never wrote or thought in plain or simple English so why should I start AFTER the degree???

EDIT:

But the fact is, that due to the vagarities of the Australian Tax System, although I don't really see it in my wages to a great extent, I didn't pay for it so I can afford to value it in a broader sense than just the direct return to me (I could probably be earning more if I had pursued high level secretarial work). But I would wonder whether the added value to their work is worth it to people who have to pay and end up with massive debts?

Edited December 15, 2005 by Elizabeth

[Nomadd]

What about Open University degrees? Has anyone here done one? Are they worth it and valued like a degree from a redbrick or do employers see them as a joke? Surely an Open University degree in maths or computer science must be as good as any other.

I have a Computer Science Degree (full time at Manchester Uni. in the mid 80's). I'm currently doing some of the mathematics courses on the OU maths degree. I have to say, I'm very impressed with the materials and the tutors so far - much, much better than the 'full time' environment at UMIST (as it was then.)

The OU degrees are very highly regarded, and the OU itself gets very high scores for it's level of teaching when compared to 'normal' universities in the annual reports.

If you were thinking of doing a degree with them - go for it. I wish I had done my original degree this way. Sure, it would have taken twice as long, but I could have also built up many additional years of work experience along the way.

Cheers,

Nomadd

Ps. I have *never* regretted doing my degree; there is no way on earth I could have earnt the same money without it. Not even in property development!

[Catch22]

bingo!

what is most likely to change, as the country adjusts to sending 50% of it's youth on a debt-funded piss-up, is that costs will be reduced by more of the students staying at home.

The govt has successfully passed the burden of HE from the taxpayer directly onto the parents (to a greater extent than onto the graduates themselves). To make this viable in the long-term, esp as we enter choppier economic waters, you will find more students treating uni as a direct extension of school.

I have no idea how students can afford to study in London in particular. Most of the students here seem to be either foreign, or living at home with their parents.

It's no bad thing, as any of the poor buggers still living in the student slums of Headingley or south Manchester will vouch for.

I believe this is more common abroad anyway?

The days of us indulging our top 10% with a free 3yr party as part recompense for the especially responsible positions that they will eventually take up are long gone. In some respects we are persisting with an old model of HE that is simply not workable when you are sending half of 18yr olds to university, most of whom aren't especially bright...

Tim G and Fancypants two excellent posts

[right_freds_dead]

you should have studied getting a loan and buying, then renting out a second home, plus hold a phd in being a selfish boomer car booter.

that would have been worth doing.

[GCS15]

You're obviously talking about jobs that don't need a degree level education. How can you be an experienced brain surgeon without a medical degree?

Go to Iraq?

[BandWagon]

My girlfriend is doing an OU degree and I too am absolutely impressed by the quality of the teaching materials.

I went to Oxford at the beginning of time, and my teaching basically consisted of floating about on a punt and knocking back sherry with crazed, eccentric tutors. It was great.

I have done some OU courses, and have found them to be superb.

Last year my tutor was from Oxford University, although we didn't get to spend any time in tweed jackets or drinking sherry.

Otherwise I'm very impressed.

[E Powell]

A degree is worth a lot but it depends where it is from.

The tories wanted to increase the number of young

in higher education they turned polytechnics into

universities.

You can have a degree in the history of fart, the

labour movement and ethnicity studies. Education

has been undervalued by the politicians.

Soon they will be giving them away in the scum

or times or as part of the membership package

when you join the new labour party.

On the subject of the OU excellent course material in the

process of finishing my MBA.

Dr E. Powell (Retired lecturer red brick university)

Edited December 16, 2005 by E Powell

[2005]

I did a course with the OU about 5/6 years ago. Excellent material and teaching. A much undervalued resource.

I do not understand why more youngsters don't opt for this option. They are paying for their degree anyway now so paying for it through the OU wouldn't make any difference and they could work, gaining valuable, expereince while they study.

[aussieboy]

Lots of anecdotes so far, no data.

Graduates earn more than non-graduates, opportunity cost and direct costs notwithstanding, although that gap is eroding (we can probably guess why):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4599267.stm

Some degrees are more lucrative than others:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/pdfs/graduates.pdf

Some universities provide better job prospects than others:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/pdfs/finalunitable2.pdf

Summary: do medicine at Cambridge.

[SarahBell]

Looking round secondary schools a few months ago we noticed how many of the teachers are proud to have loads of pcs in the classroom. I asked one if they thought a laptopo each would be better - oh yes they agreed thats what they're aiming for - then I suggested they could do away with schools and teachers and teach remotely

[AteMoose]

You're a gloomy lot! My lad's on 45k a year, with loads of headroom above him, 3 years after graduating in IT. I dread to think what kind of job he'd have if he left school at 16.

Your son is earning way above his average salary for that position and senior Senior Analyst Programmer, according to payfinder which includes london salaries, the average for that postion is 30k. My company employs 8 Analyst Programmer programmers between 18k->23k.

looking at jobserve 45k seems to be the salary of a team leader/project manager

http://www.payfinder.com/report.asp

1 Analyst Programmer £30,227 947

2 Senior Analyst Programmer £35,883 509

3 Computer Programmer £26,115 430

4 Programmer £26,294 306

5 Computer Analyst Programmer £30,978 107

6 Programmer/Developer £25,630 92

7 Vb Programmer £28,576 80

8 CNC Programmer £20,378 73

9 Systems Programmer £35,488 44

10 Programmer/Analyst £28,857 34

11 senior programmer £31,063 31

12 Applications Programmer £27,965 17

13 Statistical Programmer Analyst £29,568 15

14 Programmer / Analyst £30,333 12

15 Multimedia Programmer £22,352 10

16 Principal Programmer £29,700 10

17 Cics Systems Programmer £32,770 7

18 Remote Programmer £31,250 2

19 Analyst/Programmer £29,643 362

20 Cnc Setter Programmer And Quality Inspector £17,000 9

21 Numerical Tool or Process Control Programmer

22 Programme Manager £46,185 372

23 Procurement Manager £39,130 84

Congrats to your son for doing so well straight out of uni, he is getting paid ALOT more than most of the other people on his uni course.

an IT project manager on payfinder comes up at £42,140

Check out the top 100 jobs in the uk...

http://www.payfinder.com/payfinder/report.asp?rs=109

The 8th and 14th average top paid job in the uk is an IT directors, which isnt much above what your son currently earns.

Director Of IT £72,178

It Director £68,016

and Head Of IT earns on average £43,534!

Interestingly an It Architect on average earns £45,318, which is the 82nd job in the whole uk!

The data suggests you need to be in one of the top 50 jobs in the uk, to be able to afford an average house (LR) on a 3.5 salary multiple

Edited December 16, 2005 by moosetea

[matey]

In my days, universities were Oxford, Cambridge, Manchester. I have great delight when the grads say they went to University of Westminster, do you mean Westminster Polytechnic!!

[dog]

Degrees can be bad for innovation.

[stu]

Anyone with a degree will be thankful of it during this economic downturn.

It makes finding a job a hell of alot easier. I found a job one week after graduating.

[Scarecrow]

I got a lot more out of my degree than a job. Money has never been a motivating factor for me, so I have always been more concerned with doing something I enjoy. I did a degree which I loved, and do a job that I love (most of the time!) even though the pay is rubbish.

Met many good friends, learned how to live independently away from home, and had a good time along the way. I went to university 20 years ago, so had the advantage of a grant to allow me to do all of those things. I feel sorry for those now who are graduating with huge debts, and believe that degrees have been undervalued due to the government's obsession with keeping young people off the dole figures.

[munro]

You hit the nail on the head there. A few years ago I raised the question "why do students need to be on campus anymore?". Distance learning via the internet is the way to go. Lectures are obsolete. The concept of having to sit in a dreary lecture hall at 9am and copy notes off a blackboard is a concept completely past its sell by date in this day and age. In fact it is demeaning. Why not give students their lecture notes via the internet and let them work at things in their own time in the comfort of their living room? Every now and then they can have meetings with the lecturer and other students to discuss matters, but students shouldn't have to assemble at 9am every Monday morning to be talked at whilst having little chance to make their own contribution.

Of course there's a point to this, but it rather misses the whole point of a university in favour of concentrating on training for the job market.

A university is a community of scholars dedicated to truth and knowledge. It evolved out of the Academy in Athens. Yes, for centuries it provided educated people to run the country while the monarch and the aristocracy hunted, fornicated and generally had a good time in between going off doing some raping and pillaging in somebody else's country, but its essence lies in scholarship; which, by the way, is NOT the same as "research" so-called as churned out to meet government research assessment exercise targets.

If the aim is simply to turn out more effective sheeple to perpetuate a consumer society, then by all means go in for home-based e-learning, although you'll find it's far less effective than you might think. If it worked it would be happening. It doesn't work for the same reason that home-working never quite gets off the ground; people are essentially social creatures and few are sufficiently self-motivated to get their degrees by themselves in their bedrooms with just a computer for company. Which is not to say that OU doesn't work, of course it does, but they organise summer schools and the people who do OU tend to be older and more motivated.

By utilitarian/pragmatic standards the current university set-up may be a colossal "waste" of resources, but that's because it's an institution that is very badly fitted indeed to a 21st century mass consumerist society. So please, please leave universities as such alone to educate those who want to go (and I do mean EDUCATE) and lobby your MP to put more resources into TRAINING sheeple for the job market.

[Gtr London FTB]

Your son is earning way above his average salary for that position and senior Senior Analyst Programmer, according to payfinder which includes london salaries, the average for that postion is 30k. My company employs 8 Analyst Programmer programmers between 18k->23k.

looking at jobserve 45k seems to be the salary of a team leader/project manager

http://www.payfinder.com/report.asp

1 Analyst Programmer £30,227 947

2 Senior Analyst Programmer £35,883 509

3 Computer Programmer £26,115 430

4 Programmer £26,294 306

5 Computer Analyst Programmer £30,978 107

6 Programmer/Developer £25,630 92

7 Vb Programmer £28,576 80

8 CNC Programmer £20,378 73

9 Systems Programmer £35,488 44

10 Programmer/Analyst £28,857 34

11 senior programmer £31,063 31

12 Applications Programmer £27,965 17

13 Statistical Programmer Analyst £29,568 15

14 Programmer / Analyst £30,333 12

15 Multimedia Programmer £22,352 10

16 Principal Programmer £29,700 10

17 Cics Systems Programmer £32,770 7

18 Remote Programmer £31,250 2

19 Analyst/Programmer £29,643 362

20 Cnc Setter Programmer And Quality Inspector £17,000 9

21 Numerical Tool or Process Control Programmer

22 Programme Manager £46,185 372

23 Procurement Manager £39,130 84

Congrats to your son for doing so well straight out of uni, he is getting paid ALOT more than most of the other people on his uni course.

an IT project manager on payfinder comes up at £42,140

Check out the top 100 jobs in the uk...

http://www.payfinder.com/payfinder/report.asp?rs=109

The 8th and 14th average top paid job in the uk is an IT directors, which isnt much above what your son currently earns.

Director Of IT £72,178

It Director £68,016

and Head Of IT earns on average £43,534!

Interestingly an It Architect on average earns £45,318, which is the 82nd job in the whole uk!

The data suggests you need to be in one of the top 50 jobs in the uk, to be able to afford an average house (LR) on a 3.5 salary multiple

All very interesting figures, but I don't know any Senior J2EE Analyst/Programmers who get less than £40k - even in Scotland.

[Imp]

You hit the nail on the head there. A few years ago I raised the question "why do students need to be on campus anymore?". Distance learning via the internet is the way to go. Lectures are obsolete. The concept of having to sit in a dreary lecture hall at 9am and copy notes off a blackboard is a concept completely past its sell by date in this day and age. In fact it is demeaning. Why not give students their lecture notes via the internet and let them work at things in their own time in the comfort of their living room? Every now and then they can have meetings with the lecturer and other students to discuss matters, but students shouldn't have to assemble at 9am every Monday morning to be talked at whilst having little chance to make their own contribution.

This statement is first class tripe when it comes to a difficult subject. In my final year at university we were always given the full years worth of lecture notes in advance. Text books were useless because the subjects covered weren't yet in text books. Even though the lecture notes were very well written, if I missed an hours lecture, it would take me a day to work my way through the notes so I had the required understanding to follow the next lecture. Lectures are used because they are an effective method for getting difficult information across to many people, and to check understanding.

This wasn't me being thick. It was typical of all students on these courses, so no-one missed lectures.

[London Landlady]

I did a Mechanical engineering degree and even though I worked in Engineering initially, I don't think I actually used more than 1% of what I learnt. I think that if someone has the ability to study for a degree, they are just as likely to succeed in life whetehr they do or do not have a degree.

[rockdoctor]

Same for me studying geology.

Catching up a missed lecture was so much hard work (and unfortunately necessary) that as a consequence I attended virtually every lecture.

A bit painful when they all started at 9am and you had to cycle in with a hangover but I ended up understanding the subject a lot better than friends who tried the "miss all the lectures but read all the books on the list" route.

I reckon sitting through a lecture and making notes forces facts into your brain fairly efficiently.

[Smell the Fear]

To answer the question, look at the following list. If you need a degree to do the job, then a degree is worth it, because these jobs are all paying well above average (although mostly not enough for a decent house.....)

This is of course looking at it in purely financial terms. I don't agree with this approach, but suspect it is the main thrust of arguments being put forward here.

DR: Degree Required (added by me)

Job Title Avg Salary (£) Report

1 Director Of Etc £99,000

2 Chairman £94,565

3 Vice President £81,802

4 Chief Operating Officer £80,704

5 Physician or Surgeon £80,222 DR

6 Director Of Finance £74,076 DR probably

7 Barrister £74,025 DR

8 Director Of IT £72,178 DR probably

9 Footballer £71,908

10 Treasurer, Controller, or Chief Financial Officer £71,727 DR probably

11 Banker £69,153 DR probably

12 Finance Director £68,935 DR

13 Programme Manager Banking Services £68,500

14 It Director £68,016 DR probably

15 Business Development Director £67,704

16 Chief Executive £67,318

17 Hr Director £66,426 DR probably

18 Managing Director £64,260

19 Marketing Director £64,203

20 Hospital Doctor £63,800 DR

21 General Medical Practitioner £63,393 DR

22 Dental Surgeon £62,989 DR

23 Managing Consultant £62,299 DR probably

24 CEO £61,375

25 Group Financial Controller £61,343 DR probably

26 Commercial Director £61,136

27 Dentist, Specialist £61,100 DR

28 Divisional Director £60,935

29 Financial Director £60,574 DR probably

30 Technical Director £60,203

31 Dentist, General £60,050 DR

32 Sales Director £59,328

33 Surgeon £59,185 DR

34 Business Director £58,857

35 Human Resources Director £58,846 DR probably

36 Futures Broker £58,727

37 Captain £58,600

38 Commercial Pilot £57,884

39 Publishing Director £57,500

40 Fund Manager £57,461 DR probably

41 Trader £57,369 DR probably

42 Head Of Operations £56,625

43 Partner £55,340

44 Operations Director £55,100

45 Client Services Director £54,800

46 M.D. £54,666

47 Regional Director £54,448

48 Principal Consultant £54,085

49 Management Consultant £54,082 DR probably

50 Headteacher £53,056 DR

51 Doctor (Sho) £52,888 DR

52 Senior Business Development Manager £52,546

53 Project Director £52,200

54 European Sales Manager £51,985

55 Professor £51,646 DR

56 Customer Services Director £51,544

57 Strategy And Planning Manager £51,500 DR probably

58 Property Developer £50,880

59 Sap Management Consultant £50,475 DR probably

60 Senior House Officer £50,400 DR

61 Director £50,214

62 Pilot £50,065

63 Actuary £49,891 DR

64 Doctor £49,627 DR

65 Senior Project Manager £49,335

66 Lawyer £49,334 DR

67 Associate Director £49,325

68 General Manager And Director £49,093

69 Director (Uk) £48,653

70 Publisher £48,411

71 Area Director £47,805

72 Technical Directors/Manager £47,445

73 Head Teacher £47,331 DR

74 Chief Engineer Mn £46,277 DR

75 Programme Manager £46,185

76 Patent Attorney £45,950 DR

77 Senior Business Manager £45,875

78 Treasury Dealer £45,875

79 Family or General Practitioner £45,500 DR

80 Senior Manager £45,492

81 Regional Operation Manager £45,378

82 It Architect £45,318 DR probably

83 Senior Consultant £44,908

84 Creative Director £44,761

85 Managing Quantity Surveyor £44,615

86 Finance And Operational Support Manager £44,534

87 Head Of Marketing £44,220

88 Stockbroker £44,181 DR prob

89 Tax Manager £44,023 DR prob

90 National Sales Manager £43,952

91 Strategy Manager £43,800

92 Production Director £43,727

93 Head Of IT £43,534 DR prob

94 Account Director £43,524

95 Applications Specialist £43,406

96 Divisional Manager £43,007

97 Petroleum Engineer £42,930 DR prob

98 Compensation or Benefits Manager £42,835

99 Principal £42,625

100 Programme Director £42,500

The degree required jobs are generally much safer long term bets IMO in terms of progress and security.