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The End Of The Solar Industry (Surprise Move)


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HOLA441

Fantastic news. These people getting the solar panels are just sponging of the hard work of others the same way BTL'ers and welfare scammers do. This is a step on the way to recovery.

Incidentally I read a story where it was claimed Cameron briefed his ministers regarding energy policy to: "get rid of all the green crap". A quick google, here is the source: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/nov/21/david-cameron-green-crap-comments-storm

The stupid thing is they could help the 'green crap' by doing really simple thing without needing subsidy - make anything remotely green zero VAT for a start.

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HOLA442

At least it is not a supply-side problem with the solar industry. Phew.

Doubtless those who have already signed up will scoop their loot from the rest of us for the remaining decades of their deals. Another transfer from generally young and poor to generally old and rich.

Why make it an old/young issue ?

In France the fear was that a growing number of households would take up the offer and it would become the norm to have solar. This would mean that EDF would be paying more to these households than it cost to generate the electricity from their nuclear sites. In effect, some of the nuclear subsidy from Govt (ie. taxpayers) would find its way back to the taxpayer ! The additional fear was that as solar becomes more popular and cheaper (and storage cells become affodable), households would move off-grid. They want to limit this possibilty to ensure their monopoly and subsidy. Not the "fault" of any age group, imo.

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HOLA443

I spoke to an environmental engineer consultant bloke who said this stuff is never really worth the capital outlay for the savings made, it's just trendy middle class green kudos along with Landrovers and Agas (which some middle class people consider green because they have some relationship to the outdoors and cottages)

Edited by Si1
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HOLA444

I spoke to an environmental engineer consultant bloke who said this stuff is never really worth the capital outlay for the savings made, it's just trendy middle class green kudos along with Landrovers and Agas (which some middle class people consider green because they have some relationship to the outdoors and cottages)

Good article here about how useless solar power is: https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/solar-power-forget-it/

Just like diesel cars being promoted to cut down on CO2 whilst giving everyone lung disease! These panels have probably done more environmental damage during production than they will give back in green energy. Thermo solar was always the best option as they keep going without any reduction of performance over the years but you don't get any subsidy for them.

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HOLA445
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HOLA447

Looks like the government are going to move quickly on this, potentially fully remove the subsidy by January 2016, probably to head off a rush of installs between now and xmas.

In the telegraph link i posted is a graph of how purchase and installation charges have fallen from £8000 to currently £6750.

Still alot of money to drip back over the years and with maintenence costs and added difficulties with obtaining home insurance probably not worth the hassle.

Edited by workingpoor
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HOLA448

All that article states is that solar is not (yet) a very high percentage of the total, but that is changing.

Solar is completely viable and soon it will make sense with no subsidies at all, especially in sunnier climes and with the addition of off-grid storage. E.g. in Australia now, a 4kw rig (perhaps £6k installed) yields somewhere in the mid-teens kwh per day over the year, with a household average use of about 10 kwh per day. Solar panels are also pretty much zero maintenance and very reliable and costs are dropping incredibly fast. Personally I'd rather do it properly and go off-grid completely if I ever get a position to install it.

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HOLA4410

You don't have to be linked to the grid to benefit from solar energy. ;)

solar_water_heater_2.jpg

That's Thermo solar - the only form of solar worth installing at the moment. I'm sure photo voltaic will improve in the future but for me Thermo solar is what I will be installing and I won't get nor want tax payer subsidy for doing it. Edited by OurDayWillCome
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HOLA4411

All that article states is that solar is not (yet) a very high percentage of the total, but that is changing.

Solar is completely viable and soon it will make sense with no subsidies at all, especially in sunnier climes and with the addition of off-grid storage. E.g. in Australia now, a 4kw rig (perhaps £6k installed) yields somewhere in the mid-teens kwh per day over the year, with a household average use of about 10 kwh per day. Solar panels are also pretty much zero maintenance and very reliable and costs are dropping incredibly fast. Personally I'd rather do it properly and go off-grid completely if I ever get a position to install it.

The problem is solar is not being fitted in the parts of the world that gets the sun. The article highlights this.
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HOLA4412

Let me ask the stupid question: so solar panels were only worth it with government subsidies? Without such subsidies, solar panels are simply too expensive and take too long to get your "money back" via energy cost savings? Are solar panels on a property not economically viable without government subsidies?!

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HOLA4413

Unless storage improves solar just won't be able to deliver more than a small percentage of UK generation: https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2015/07/24/what-the-solar-industry-forgot-to-tell-you/

Pumped storage is currently the most efficient but that would require big environmentally damaging civil engineering projects in Wales and Scotland.

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HOLA4416

http://info.cat.org.uk/questions/pv/life-expectancy-solar-PV-panels

Even a pro solar report can't really say how long a panel will last. Didn't realise they decreased output by 5% in the first year. It does mention how due to the very un-environmental production process results in many years use to be carbon neutral. Thermo Solar for me - no drop off and easy to replace evacuated tubes if one of them breaks.

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HOLA4417

So solar was hyped up beyond belief - with the hype heavily reliant on government subsidies making solar "worth it"? Christ, black is white, white is black - I believe nothing anymore.

No, that's not true. Solar is already viable without subsidies in many parts of the world and is getting cheaper at a rate faster than anyone anticipated. Battery storage is also getting cheaper much faster than we thought it would and when the two combine there will be a very strong incentive to switch over. It'll be worth it even in less sunny climes like our own because, so long as you have the roof space, you can simply get a bigger array.

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HOLA4418

http://info.cat.org.uk/questions/pv/life-expectancy-solar-PV-panels

Even a pro solar report can't really say how long a panel will last. Didn't realise they decreased output by 5% in the first year. It does mention how due to the very un-environmental production process results in many years use to be carbon neutral. Thermo Solar for me - no drop off and easy to replace evacuated tubes if one of them breaks.

dont the invertors or transformers or whatever they are (the boxes inside the house) go long before the panels anyway...and theyre not exactly cheap to replace IIRC.

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HOLA4419

dont the invertors or transformers or whatever they are (the boxes inside the house) go long before the panels anyway...and theyre not exactly cheap to replace IIRC.

Good point. I would have also thought this country would be better investing in micro-hydro run of river systems as you only need a good head of water and no dams. A stream with a decent drop would have produced plenty of (constant) kWh with all the rain we have had in the past month. Edited by OurDayWillCome
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HOLA4420

So solar was hyped up beyond belief - with the hype heavily reliant on government subsidies making solar "worth it"? Christ, black is white, white is black - I believe nothing anymore.

So pretty much the same as Nuclear then ? Or maybe not as bad as nuclear? Take away the subsidies and how much do you reckon the average electricity bill would be in the UK ? And take into account the subsidy the French taxpayer pays to EDF befoee the electricity is bought by the UK operators on the market. Oh, and don't forget the future subsidies for cleaning up / storing the spent fuel etc.

I'd hazard a guess that solar receives a lot less subsidy per household than nuclear.

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HOLA4421

No, that's not true. Solar is already viable without subsidies in many parts of the world and is getting cheaper at a rate faster than anyone anticipated. Battery storage is also getting cheaper much faster than we thought it would and when the two combine there will be a very strong incentive to switch over. It'll be worth it even in less sunny climes like our own because, so long as you have the roof space, you can simply get a bigger array.

Thanks for the explanation - to follow up, WHY isn't this currently the case in the UK? I mean - why, without government subsidies, is solar not apparently viable for households in the UK?

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HOLA4422

Thanks for the explanation - to follow up, WHY isn't this currently the case in the UK? I mean - why, without government subsidies, is solar not apparently viable for households in the UK?

It is viable in countries with a lot more sun. Irridiance in this country is around 1000 whereas in some countries it is way over 2000. Therefore, you get more than twice as much production for the same outlay.

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HOLA4424

It is viable in countries with a lot more sun. Irridiance in this country is around 1000 whereas in some countries it is way over 2000. Therefore, you get more than twice as much production for the same outlay.

So - you are saying - it's simply not viable in the UK without government subsidies because there's not enough sunshine in the UK? In which case, surely solar power (in its current efficiency/technological development) is not viable in the UK? So loads of people have been duped into having solar panels?

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HOLA4425

So - you are saying - it's simply not viable in the UK without government subsidies because there's not enough sunshine in the UK? In which case, surely solar power (in its current efficiency/technological development) is not viable in the UK? So loads of people have been duped into having solar panels?

It is viable for sure, but really some sort of storage solution is required to make it really attractive - and those are coming down in price very dramatically. The problem at the moment is that you simply can't use your solar for (at least) half of the time, and the half-the-time you can't use it happens to (usually) be when you need it most (evening). If you don't get much money for selling your electricity back during the day, and still have to fork out for electricity during periods of no solar generation (as well as a connection tariff) then it's going to take you a lot longer to make your money back. If you can store a couple of days worth of power then conceivably you go entirely off-grid, saving a lot of money. You might even be able to achieve this in the UK with a 4-6kw rig. Apart from the obvious limitation that I don't actually own a house, I would wait anyway and go the whole hog when I do it.

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