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32 minutes ago, Si1 said:

In a nutshell, only 1 in 5 adults can actually add up. Far far far far fewer than this will understand things like the money illusion, compound interest, risk adjusted returns, opportunity cost.

These people need to spend some time at a racetrack.

 

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13 hours ago, Badhairday said:

Yes, overseas landlords, including those from countries that have no CGT, have to pay CGT to HMRC upon the sale of British property.

This is correct but only on recent gains. 

New Capital Gains Tax rules for non-UK residents with property in the UK

It used to be the case that if you had one property in the UK, but were a non-UK resident and you sold that property, you would not be liable for any Capital Gains Tax on the sale. However, as of April 6th 2015 a new rule was introduced which saw this loophole closed.

Key elements to consider with regards to the rule change include:

  • What is the value of your property as of April 6th 2015?
  • Will the capital gains still fall within your tax allowance?
  • What are the capital gains from the sale of the property (i.e. how much was it bought for and how much is it worth)?
  • Is it worth taking advantage of rising UK house prices before the new rule comes into play?
  • If you are considering buying a UK property, you should factor in Capital Gains Tax if your purchase is as an investment

To get the latest news and to get a full evaluation of your situation, you should request Capital Gains Tax advice from a qualified tax adviser.

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12 hours ago, Neverwhere said:

I would be surprised if it was, given the consolidation clause in MX BTL loans, although perhaps they are disposing of everything that isn't being held by UKAR.

I don't know - they could have been lying but I would hope a journalist would check that.

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22 hours ago, Si1 said:

It's been assessed at the national level:

https://www.nationalnumeracy.org.uk/what-issue

22 hours ago, Si1 said:

In a nutshell, only 1 in 5 adults can actually add up. Far far far far fewer than this will understand things like the money illusion, compound interest, risk adjusted returns, opportunity cost.

In the land of the blind the one eyed man, Busta, is king.

That's pretty dire but I guess it also explains a lot.

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21 hours ago, pmf170170 said:

This is correct but only on recent gains. 

New Capital Gains Tax rules for non-UK residents with property in the UK

It used to be the case that if you had one property in the UK, but were a non-UK resident and you sold that property, you would not be liable for any Capital Gains Tax on the sale. However, as of April 6th 2015 a new rule was introduced which saw this loophole closed.

Key elements to consider with regards to the rule change include:

  • What is the value of your property as of April 6th 2015?
  • Will the capital gains still fall within your tax allowance?
  • What are the capital gains from the sale of the property (i.e. how much was it bought for and how much is it worth)?
  • Is it worth taking advantage of rising UK house prices before the new rule comes into play?
  • If you are considering buying a UK property, you should factor in Capital Gains Tax if your purchase is as an investment

To get the latest news and to get a full evaluation of your situation, you should request Capital Gains Tax advice from a qualified tax adviser.

And this is the loophole that Busta exploited by moving to Malta. 

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24 minutes ago, Ah-so said:

And this is the loophole that Busta exploited by moving to Malta. 

Really...? Wouldn't he still have to pay capital gains correlating to the time he lived in the UK?

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44 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Really...? Wouldn't he still have to pay capital gains correlating to the time he lived in the UK?

I dont think its that simple.

Hmrc would class it as tax evasion, as hes unlikely to have job there and his assets/connection is in uk.

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1 hour ago, spyguy said:

I dont think its that simple.

Hmrc would class it as tax evasion, as hes unlikely to have job there and his assets/connection is in uk.

I tend to agree. He's sold a lot, but not only time will tell if he has escaped his tax liability.

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This is a miracle, but there is a good article on poverty118:

https://www.property118.com/average-buy-to-let-makes-a-return-of-just-2k-a-year-pre-tax/

Quote

What’s left?

Based on an average annual rental income of £8,112 divided by the average B2L property cost of £183,278, the average yield available is 4.4% – that’s an annual sum of £8,119.

Over the last decade, the capital appreciation of bricks and mortar has also averaged an increase of 2.85% a year, £5,223 in monetary terms. That means B2L landlords are seeing a return of £13,343 on their investment.

However, leaving start-up costs and unforeseen events out of the equation, once the average UK landlord has paid the ongoing costs associated with a buy-to-let property each year, they’re left with a profit of just £2,140.

An that's assuming capital appreciation and ignoring income tax. Stationary house prices = guaranteed loss!

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Auction entries rise as clobbered buy-to-let landlords look to sell their properties

https://propertyindustryeye.com/auction-entries-rise-as-clobbered-buy-to-let-landlords-look-to-sell-their-properties/

Auction House, which works with a network of local agents, has a record 846 lots entered into its sales this month.

The boost is largely from buy-to-let landlords selling off their properties.

In its 12-year history, Auction House has not had a month like it.

Founding director Roger Lake said: “Taxation changes are driving many investors to sell off their rental properties.”

He added: “There are still large-scale landlords buying such stock, and plenty of refurbishment specialists who would acquire and carry out improvement programmes.”

Auction House, which holds physical auctions as well as weekly national online sales, has so far sold 2,256 lots this year, up 4.6% on last year.

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1 hour ago, rantnrave said:

Auction entries rise as clobbered buy-to-let landlords look to sell their properties

https://propertyindustryeye.com/auction-entries-rise-as-clobbered-buy-to-let-landlords-look-to-sell-their-properties/

Auction House, which works with a network of local agents, has a record 846 lots entered into its sales this month.

The boost is largely from buy-to-let landlords selling off their properties.

In its 12-year history, Auction House has not had a month like it.

Founding director Roger Lake said: “Taxation changes are driving many investors to sell off their rental properties.”

He added: “There are still large-scale landlords buying such stock, and plenty of refurbishment specialists who would acquire and carry out improvement programmes.”

Auction House, which holds physical auctions as well as weekly national online sales, has so far sold 2,256 lots this year, up 4.6% on last year.

Axe the tenant tax FB group are bawling about this too... Lol

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2595283010514687&id=1077700412272962&anchor_composer=false

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1 hour ago, rantnrave said:

Auction entries rise as clobbered buy-to-let landlords look to sell their properties

https://propertyindustryeye.com/auction-entries-rise-as-clobbered-buy-to-let-landlords-look-to-sell-their-properties/

Auction House, which works with a network of local agents, has a record 846 lots entered into its sales this month.

The boost is largely from buy-to-let landlords selling off their properties.

In its 12-year history, Auction House has not had a month like it.

Founding director Roger Lake said: “Taxation changes are driving many investors to sell off their rental properties.”

He added: “There are still large-scale landlords buying such stock, and plenty of refurbishment specialists who would acquire and carry out improvement programmes.”

Auction House, which holds physical auctions as well as weekly national online sales, has so far sold 2,256 lots this year, up 4.6% on last year.

Thats BS to both those claims.

Im not seeing much in he way of builders doing refurbs - they cannot get the finance.

As far as large scale LL buying. Nope, none.

 

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On 12/09/2019 at 23:36, Bear Hug said:

This is a miracle, but there is a good article on poverty118:

https://www.property118.com/average-buy-to-let-makes-a-return-of-just-2k-a-year-pre-tax/

An that's assuming capital appreciation and ignoring income tax. Stationary house prices = guaranteed loss!

Nice to see some of the landlords making the same point!

Quote

One thing left out in the figures is service charges which are outside the landlords control.
Also the capital appreciation in some areas is non existent if not negative.

Quote

Indeed. I only wish ours had gone up £5000+ a year. On the flats, the service charges are now at least 60% up on ten years ago while rents have barely increased at all, and capital appreciation is nearer 2.9% over that period, not 2.9% p.a.

 

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Might be the same source.

https://www.lettingagenttoday.co.uk/breaking-news/2019/9/revealed--how-little-a-typical-buy-to-let-investor-makes-in-a-year

The numbers are unchanged leveraged io btl fwittery is nuts. Always has been.

Why banks are happy to let these idiots speculate on property at such a small margin is beyond me. Banks ned to be charging commercial bridging loans - 3% month compounding.

Oh, the 'profit' is pre tax.

And the voids are too low comiated to the places i see - well into 8 weeks

 

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11 hours ago, spyguy said:

Might be the same source.

https://www.lettingagenttoday.co.uk/breaking-news/2019/9/revealed--how-little-a-typical-buy-to-let-investor-makes-in-a-year

The numbers are unchanged leveraged io btl fwittery is nuts. Always has been.

Why banks are happy to let these idiots speculate on property at such a small margin is beyond me. Banks ned to be charging commercial bridging loans - 3% month compounding.

Oh, the 'profit' is pre tax.

And the voids are too low comiated to the places i see - well into 8 weeks

 

surely now the LL has to pay tax on the income of £8134 at rate of at least 20% more possibly 40% which would wipe out profits.  But they wouldnt need to pay stamp duty every year. Either way its a poor return on 183 grand. can do better elsewhere.  without a large capital gain on the house theres no point in investing. and recently there no price gains. a small % drop and they are well into a loss. 

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26 minutes ago, Timbuk3 said:

surely now the LL has to pay tax on the income of £8134 at rate of at least 20% more possibly 40% which would wipe out profits.  But they wouldnt need to pay stamp duty every year. Either way its a poor return on 183 grand. can do better elsewhere.  without a large capital gain on the house theres no point in investing. and recently there no price gains. a small % drop and they are well into a loss. 

The thing that will divert landlords away is often the hassle not the numbers. Many can’t add up. 

For those with actual money the underlying problem is knowing where to put it. Many believe shares aren’t a real asset eg M&S (and Co) don’t own their stores, don’t own their stock, don’t own their staff...share price is based on past performance rather on predicted income which at best is a 2/3 year horizon with the world changing as fast as it is. 

Gold, bitcoin or antiques etc are a bit too specialist. 

The big problem is the £183k is not their money. Issue is you can borrow and leverage on property. Ie it’s not ‘our my money in property as a pension’ because it’s not their money. It’s perceived as a clever little scam where even with almost no return after 25 years you probably own a house paid for by someone else. Unless of course any small profit has been used to buy a Range Rover 😉

S24 helped. But will need to go further. Fundamentally being able to borrow to buy any investment is the key problem. Particularly with historic low interest rates.

I am not advocating property as a good idea...rather trying to express what I believe rattles around these people’s heads.

Edited by Pop321

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The end of lettings relief after April 2020 is probably a factor now. 

Selling after the end of this tax year loses you £40k plus 9 months of tax relief, equating to an overnight drop in value of potentially +£20k.

I suspect that many possibly most landlords are still unaware of this. 

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1 hour ago, Pop321 said:

The thing that will divert landlords away is often the hassle not the numbers. Many can’t add up. 

For those with actual money the underlying problem is knowing where to put it. Many believe shares aren’t a real asset eg M&S (and Co) don’t own their stores, don’t own their stock, don’t own their staff...share price is based on past performance rather on predicted income which at best is a 2/3 year horizon with the world changing as fast as it is. 

Gold, bitcoin or antiques etc are a bit too specialist. 

The big problem is the £183k is not their money. Issue is you can borrow and leverage on property. Ie it’s not ‘our my money in property as a pension’ because it’s not their money. It’s perceived as a clever little scam where even with almost no return after 25 years you probably own a house paid for by someone else. Unless of course any small profit has been used to buy a Range Rover 😉

S24 helped. But will need to go further. Fundamentally being able to borrow to buy any investment is the key problem. Particularly with historic low interest rates.

I am not advocating property as a good idea...rather trying to express what I believe rattles around these people’s heads.

My only hope is on Corbyn to cut the tax incentives and introduce new taxes on a weekend. These leeches would be dead by the start of the week.

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On 17/09/2019 at 10:33, Confusion of VIs said:

The end of lettings relief after April 2020 is probably a factor now. 

Selling after the end of this tax year loses you £40k plus 9 months of tax relief, equating to an overnight drop in value of potentially +£20k.

I suspect that many possibly most landlords are still unaware of this. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/buy-to-let/landlords-urged-sell-buy-to-let-properties-now-tax-bills-soar/

"...Tax advisers have warned landlords to consider selling their buy-to-let properties now before a slew of new rules coming in April take a bigger bite out of their already squeezed incomes.

The incoming tax changes means property investors could be better off selling now, experts have said, despite the current weakness in the market."

So. Much. Bear. Food....yom yom yom. And it's not even a full article to read! Squirm you dirty leaching turds... oh and sell up while you still can! Lolz

 

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1 hour ago, highcontrast said:

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/buy-to-let/landlords-urged-sell-buy-to-let-properties-now-tax-bills-soar/

"...Tax advisers have warned landlords to consider selling their buy-to-let properties now before a slew of new rules coming in April take a bigger bite out of their already squeezed incomes.

The incoming tax changes means property investors could be better off selling now, experts have said, despite the current weakness in the market."

So. Much. Bear. Food....yom yom yom. And it's not even a full article to read! Squirm you dirty leaching turds... oh and sell up while you still can! Lolz

 

http://propertyindustryeye.com/auction-entries-rise-as-clobbered-buy-to-let-landlords-look-to-sell-their-properties/   

Looks like its starting already.  

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11 hours ago, highcontrast said:

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/buy-to-let/landlords-urged-sell-buy-to-let-properties-now-tax-bills-soar/

"...Tax advisers have warned landlords to consider selling their buy-to-let properties now before a slew of new rules coming in April take a bigger bite out of their already squeezed incomes.

The incoming tax changes means property investors could be better off selling now, experts have said, despite the current weakness in the market."

So. Much. Bear. Food....yom yom yom. And it's not even a full article to read! Squirm you dirty leaching turds... oh and sell up while you still can! Lolz

 

I think this is starting to be really interesting. In our town (affluent N Yorkshire spot) historically landlords rarely sell. But I am definitely seeing plenty of sales....and as I suspected it’s houses in ‘the rental areas’ which are coming up. 

The thing that is interesting is that it is debt that seems to be the main issue and rather than property. What I mean is people aren’t selling their shares or gold because of Brexit (or whatever a current issue affecting assets might be) and that is because it’s things they own. However the majority selling property are those with debt and although it’s been said before it seems debt was always the significant weight that created the imbalance and drove up prices. 

S24 as a first step to redress this and makes BTL almost a completely non viable option. Effectively debt makes property a leveraged gamble for those without assets. Lots of quotes in papers saying ‘I invested my money in property for a pension’ and then go on to explain its 85% interest only debt...so they are not investing ‘their money’. 

For those still set on property with £500k may still buy a little flat or terrace for £170k yielding 6/7% as part of their ‘investments’ and any growth is a bonus....indeed a capital loss is also acceptable due to the yield. However what seems to have stopped (indeed reversing) is those who are risking everything with debt on the hope of HPI because the rent calculation doesn’t work and a drop in prices completely smashes their equity.

And the 118’er debt guy is the majority so we are definitely seeing a slow down in HPI. (I would say a fall in prices but this is North Yorkshire...so not as previously buoyant or out of reach as the South)

Definitely worth watching how this plays out. FTB’ers should be sat on their hands and definitely not buying the daft new builds which seem to be 40% more than they should be. 

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2 minutes ago, Pop321 said:

I think this is starting to be really interesting. In our town (affluent N Yorkshire spot) historically landlords rarely sell. But I am definitely seeing plenty of sales....and as I suspected it’s houses in ‘the rental areas’ which are coming up. 

The thing that is interesting is that it is debt that seems to be the main issue and rather than property. What I mean is people aren’t selling their shares or gold because of Brexit (or whatever a current issue affecting assets might be) and that is because it’s things they own. However the majority selling property are those with debt and although it’s been said before it seems debt was always the significant weight that created the imbalance and drove up prices. 

S24 as a first step to redress this and makes BTL almost a completely non viable option. Effectively debt makes property a leveraged gamble for those without assets. Lots of quotes in papers saying ‘I invested my money in property for a pension’ and then go on to explain its 85% interest only debt...so they are not investing ‘their money’. 

For those still set on property with £500k may still buy a little flat or terrace for £170k yielding 6/7% as part of their ‘investments’ and any growth is a bonus....indeed a capital loss is also acceptable due to the yield. However what seems to have stopped (indeed reversing) is those who are risking everything with debt on the hope of HPI because the rent calculation doesn’t work and a drop in prices completely smashes their equity.

And the 118’er debt guy is the majority so we are definitely seeing a slow down in HPI. (I would say a fall in prices but this is North Yorkshire...so not as previously buoyant or out of reach as the South)

Definitely worth watching how this plays out. FTB’ers should be sat on their hands and definitely not buying the daft new builds which seem to be 40% more than they should be. 

Leverage BTL is not viable.

What seems to be happening is that the to get the 'cheap; BTL L needs to be putting more cash to get the LTV down. A lot - they banks dont want any BTL over 60%.

Anyone with with an old 95% suddenly has to find several 10k per house.

Then theres portfolio LL. Noone wants their business at all.

I would guess that BTL SVR are going up and up, And BTL LTV are going down and down.

 

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  • 277 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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