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He's ok! Give him a break.

More seriously, I don't think he is OK. I've been on these boards a little while now, but I'm new around here compared to some others. There comes a point when you just get bored to death with posters who when it boils down to it have one thing to say, and one thing only, "You can't go wrong with houses".

This bubble has been big enough and gone on for long enough that it is massively disruptive. I feel that we are past the point where we can have cucumber sandwiches and tea and speak in a friendly academic way about house prices as if nothing really matters.

I don't think that any knowledgeable, intelligent, decent person should be OK with house prices at all. I don't think that anyone who looks at the mess that has been made and how it has set up an as yet unresolved intergenerational conflict and says "If house prices fall I'll buy more" can be in any reasonable sense OK. It's nutty.

I've long felt that this forum is one of a relatively small number of public spaces where the unsustainable nature of UK housing and the financing of UK housing is understood.

If someone was to come along and make interesting arguments about why this supposed new normal was really the new normal then I would be interested and I would not call troll. There are plenty of posters that I massively disagree with about almost everything - that doesn't make them trolls in my eyes.

What I am fed up with is posters who make out they have an argument, but when you scratch at the surface there is nothing there aside from a faith in UK property which rests on the past performance of UK property. As I've argued before, my strong conviction is that they are likely losers who've made a little money on BTL and want a place where they can revel in their genius as a property investor. There are places for that. Property118 is one, the property forum at MSE is another. They could even start their own forum, or their own thread on this forum in Anecdotals.

I struggle to see how a thread called A goodbye to all that buy-to-let, which is the home of a book about how a tide of bank regulation and tax policy may make tomorrow different from today is the right place for pipllman to blow his own trumpet. I question his motives when he elects to do so.

Crucially, pipllman is constantly trying to construe this as being about landlords, but it isn't. It is about people using interest-only mortgages to whisk the homes of our communities away from us and force us to rent from them or move away. Anyone who thinks that doing that four times, let alone six times, makes them anything other than an amoral social parasite needs to get their head examined. Anyone who is OK with being an amoral social parasite is, in my opinion, by definition, not OK.

It's convenient for the amoral scum over at Poverty11Later to conflate landlordism with the very dodgy pact that interest-only financed BTLers have made with the crap banks, but they are not the same thing.

The classic example that always appals me is the fact that you'll struggle to get a 24 month AST because it suits the banks to restrict you to a 6 month AST or a 12 month AST. These people are not offering a service. How can they claim they are when the single most important aspect of the service they supposedly provide is set not by them but by their financiers? Henry Ford didn't say "You can have it in any colour you like, provided you have it on a 5 year payment plan at 4.9% APR"

These people are not investors, or landlords - they are front men for a shit, predatory finance sector. They are at best vassals, mindless tools - mugs. If they know what they're doing they are scum. They are not OK. The fact that this economic infanticide has been normalised is a sign of a broader sickness.

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Bit too busy at work to make a proper song and dance about the introduction of SS13/16. Here's something from This is Money; The buy-to-let mortgage prisoners: New lending rules could see landlor

This is quite an important point that doesn't get much of an airing. The 'prices will never crash' types who post here often bang on about how a sharp correction will kill the economy. That ignores th

The issue is the extent to which the growth of net lending was being driven by buy-to-let lending. There IS (and it pains me to say it) quite a good piece on PovertyLater from a couple of days ba

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No, there is no obfuscation - where do you think there is any?

All investments carry risks

But, due to the fact that the tenants contribution to the purchase price of the property, buying a house and renting it out - with sensible leverage - can have quite a low risk at many points in the economic cycle.

A couple of points in response if I may:

1. Using leverage to purchase a BTL on a recourse basis (ie. where the bank can chase you personally for any shortfall in recovery on its security) opens you up to the risk of losing more than the amount you initially invested. So one could "invest" £50K in a £100k house and end up losing £100k (plus potentially the lenders fees, receivers fees, etc). This is NOT a low risk investment. Most other retail asset classes limit your funds at risk to your initial investment. I think it is very dangerous to characterise leveraged BTL as "low risk".

2. You've completely ignored credit risk. Your investment strategy relies on rent from one or two individuals who are unlikely to have significant savings. One bit of bad luck at work for your tenant, and your rental income stream could well stop. Possibly you've got a 3 month void to deal with as you try to evict them, maybe worse. That's a negative cash outflow to keep your position - never a nice place to be.

On a more general point it's quite easy to look at historical data and identify periods when investing in a particular asset class was a good idea, it's a damn site more difficult to do that when evaluating the here and now. I don't know if the next recession has already started, will start next month, or is 10 years off, nor does anyone else. On this basis saying "at the right time of the economic cycle" is somewhat redundant absent a 100% accurate crystal ball.

Edited by Exiled Canadian
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More seriously, I don't think he is OK. I've been on these boards a little while now, but I'm new around here compared to some others. There comes a point when you just get bored to death with posters who when it boils down to it have one thing to say, and one thing only, "You can't go wrong with houses".

This bubble has been big enough and gone on for long enough that it is massively disruptive. I feel that we are past the point where we can have cucumber sandwiches and tea and speak in a friendly academic way about house prices as if nothing really matters.

I don't think that any knowledgeable, intelligent, decent person should be OK with house prices at all. I don't think that anyone who looks at the mess that has been made and how it has set up an as yet unresolved intergenerational conflict and says "If house prices fall I'll buy more" can be in any reasonable sense OK. It's nutty.

I've long felt that this forum is one of a relatively small number of public spaces where the unsustainable nature of UK housing and the financing of UK housing is understood.

If someone was to come along and make interesting arguments about why this supposed new normal was really the new normal then I would be interested and I would not call troll. There are plenty of posters that I massively disagree with about almost everything - that doesn't make them trolls in my eyes.

What I am fed up with is posters who make out they have an argument, but when you scratch at the surface there is nothing there aside from a faith in UK property which rests on the past performance of UK property. As I've argued before, my strong conviction is that they are likely losers who've made a little money on BTL and want a place where they can revel in their genius as a property investor. There are places for that. Property118 is one, the property forum at MSE is another. They could even start their own forum, or their own thread on this forum in Anecdotals.

I struggle to see how a thread called A goodbye to all that buy-to-let, which is the home of a book about how a tide of bank regulation and tax policy may make tomorrow different from today is the right place for pipllman to blow his own trumpet. I question his motives when he elects to do so.

Crucially, pipllman is constantly trying to construe this as being about landlords, but it isn't. It is about people using interest-only mortgages to whisk the homes of our communities away from us and force us to rent from them or move away. Anyone who thinks that doing that four times, let alone six times, makes them anything other than an amoral social parasite needs to get their head examined. Anyone who is OK with being an amoral social parasite is, in my opinion, by definition, not OK.

It's convenient for the amoral scum over at Poverty11Later to conflate landlordism with the very dodgy pact that interest-only financed BTLers have made with the crap banks, but they are not the same thing.

The classic example that always appals me is the fact that you'll struggle to get a 24 month AST because it suits the banks to restrict you to a 6 month AST or a 12 month AST. These people are not offering a service. How can they claim they are when the single most important aspect of the service they supposedly provide is set not by them but by their financiers? Henry Ford didn't say "You can have it in any colour you like, provided you have it on a 5 year payment plan at 4.9% APR"

These people are not investors, or landlords - they are front men for a shit, predatory finance sector. They are at best vassals, mindless tools - mugs. If they know what they're doing they are scum. They are not OK. The fact that this economic infanticide has been normalised is a sign of a broader sickness.

Yes.

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More seriously, I don't think he is OK. I've been on these boards a little while now, but I'm new around here compared to some others. There comes a point when you just get bored to death with posters who when it boils down to it have one thing to say, and one thing only, "You can't go wrong with houses".

This bubble has been big enough and gone on for long enough that it is massively disruptive. I feel that we are past the point where we can have cucumber sandwiches and tea and speak in a friendly academic way about house prices as if nothing really matters.

I don't think that any knowledgeable, intelligent, decent person should be OK with house prices at all. I don't think that anyone who looks at the mess that has been made and how it has set up an as yet unresolved intergenerational conflict and says "If house prices fall I'll buy more" can be in any reasonable sense OK. It's nutty.

I've long felt that this forum is one of a relatively small number of public spaces where the unsustainable nature of UK housing and the financing of UK housing is understood.

If someone was to come along and make interesting arguments about why this supposed new normal was really the new normal then I would be interested and I would not call troll. There are plenty of posters that I massively disagree with about almost everything - that doesn't make them trolls in my eyes.

What I am fed up with is posters who make out they have an argument, but when you scratch at the surface there is nothing there aside from a faith in UK property which rests on the past performance of UK property. As I've argued before, my strong conviction is that they are likely losers who've made a little money on BTL and want a place where they can revel in their genius as a property investor. There are places for that. Property118 is one, the property forum at MSE is another. They could even start their own forum, or their own thread on this forum in Anecdotals.

I struggle to see how a thread called A goodbye to all that buy-to-let, which is the home of a book about how a tide of bank regulation and tax policy may make tomorrow different from today is the right place for pipllman to blow his own trumpet. I question his motives when he elects to do so.

Crucially, pipllman is constantly trying to construe this as being about landlords, but it isn't. It is about people using interest-only mortgages to whisk the homes of our communities away from us and force us to rent from them or move away. Anyone who thinks that doing that four times, let alone six times, makes them anything other than an amoral social parasite needs to get their head examined. Anyone who is OK with being an amoral social parasite is, in my opinion, by definition, not OK.

It's convenient for the amoral scum over at Poverty11Later to conflate landlordism with the very dodgy pact that interest-only financed BTLers have made with the crap banks, but they are not the same thing.

The classic example that always appals me is the fact that you'll struggle to get a 24 month AST because it suits the banks to restrict you to a 6 month AST or a 12 month AST. These people are not offering a service. How can they claim they are when the single most important aspect of the service they supposedly provide is set not by them but by their financiers? Henry Ford didn't say "You can have it in any colour you like, provided you have it on a 5 year payment plan at 4.9% APR"

These people are not investors, or landlords - they are front men for a shit, predatory finance sector. They are at best vassals, mindless tools - mugs. If they know what they're doing they are scum. They are not OK. The fact that this economic infanticide has been normalised is a sign of a broader sickness.

You forgot that he made his own luck.

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The BTL LL and the BTL tenant are two sides of the same coin. One can't exist without the other together they pushed up house prices.

From a landlord's perspective, possibly, but the truth is somewhat different.

The BTL tenant may have bought years ago if it were not for the speculative bubble fuelled by the BTL landlord using cheap credit and tax incentives to hoover up houses and let them out to the BTL tenant he has outbid to purchase the house.

The sickening thing is that a lot of the cheap credit is provided by government owned banks underwritten by our taxes and low interest rates, ie from the pockets of savers.

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The BTL LL and the BTL tenant are two sides of the same coin. One can't exist without the other together they pushed up house prices.

Because the tenant can obviously choose to go without shelter. It's not like it's a basic human necessity or anything. They should have all stayed at home with their parents anyway and had no independent, adult quality of life whatsoever, right? You've got your nice low rate mortgage and largely paid off house but how dare the young think that they should have anything more than their childhood bedrooms? Doesn't matter that it's dragged on for twenty years now and some of them would be pushing past child bearing age and never have had a proper job because there aren't enough to go around where their parents live. I'm sure we would all be better off if they'd never moved to areas that had work or to properties with enough space for them to have children in. A massively high unemployment economy with a tiny birthrate in which only those rich enough to buy houses procreate would be best all round. And those whose parents are abusive or absent or dead or - God forbid - renters? Well, there's always cardboard boxes.

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Because the tenant can obviously choose to go without shelter. It's not like it's a basic human necessity or anything. They should have all stayed at home with their parents anyway and had no independent, adult quality of life whatsoever, right? You've got your nice low rate mortgage and largely paid off house but how dare the young think that they should have anything more than their childhood bedrooms? Doesn't matter that it's dragged on for twenty years now and some of them would be pushing past child bearing age and never have had a proper job because there aren't enough to go around where their parents live. I'm sure we would all be better off if they'd never moved to areas that had work or to properties with enough space for them to have children in. A massively high unemployment economy with a tiny birthrate in which only those rich enough to buy houses procreate would be best all round. And those whose parents are abusive or absent or dead or - God forbid - renters? Well, there's always cardboard boxes.

Renting is just queue jumping.If they band BTL everybody would have to save and buy. People that rent push up house prices for those that want to buy and make the years they have to spend in their childhood bedroom even longer.

If you say you had no choice that your parents kicked you out then you should be thanking the BTL LL because without him you would be living under a bridge.

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Renting is just queue jumping.If they band BTL everybody would have to save and buy. People that rent push up house prices for those that want to buy and make the years they have to spend in their childhood bedroom even longer.

If you say you had no choice that your parents kicked you out then you should be thanking the BTL LL because without him you would be living under a bridge.

You landlords crack me up :rolleyes:.

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That is patronising ********. Just because you are OK don't come on here talking down to anyone who rents because he has been priced out by BTL landlords.

The governments have been asleep at the wheel letting the banks lend IO to people who frankly have proved on Poverty later that they have no clue about CGT or taxes - who think they can punish tenants by making them pay their lawful taxes - who think they can keep people enslaved and begging with their 6 month AST.

It's time this forum got back to the serious business of the HPC that is coming down the line and stopped wasting space and time on landlords who can produce no evidence for their "investment" is anything other than banks looking for suckers.

Bland Unsight is 100% correct. The more time that is wasted arguing with one theme landlords then more serious discussions are sidelined.

+1

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That is patronising ********. Just because you are OK don't come on here talking down to anyone who rents because he has been priced out by BTL landlords.

The governments have been asleep at the wheel letting the banks lend IO to people who frankly have proved on Poverty later that they have no clue about CGT or taxes - who think they can punish tenants by making them pay their lawful taxes - who think they can keep people enslaved and begging with their 6 month AST.

It's time this forum got back to the serious business of the HPC that is coming down the line and stopped wasting space and time on landlords who can produce no evidence for their "investment" is anything other than banks looking for suckers.

Bland Unsight is 100% correct. The more time that is wasted arguing with one theme landlords then more serious discussions are sidelined.

Council houses should never have been sold off. BTL should never have been brought in.

Can't you see what has happened?

It has been a feed back loop. Bland Unsight is right when he says that BTL pushed up house prices and as house price have gone up the time it takes to save a deposit has gone up making more people decide to rent instead. and the cycle repeats it's self.

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Renting is just queue jumping.If they band BTL everybody would have to save and buy. People that rent push up house prices for those that want to buy and make the years they have to spend in their childhood bedroom even longer.

If you say you had no choice that your parents kicked you out then you should be thanking the BTL LL because without him you would be living under a bridge.

Sure. BTL landlords actually create houses. Without them houses would cease to exist and disappear in a puff of smoke. Everyone should be grateful for the BTL landlords wishing the houses into existence, without them they would be living under bridges. I mean it's not like land is a natural resource or anything. In other news the banks have agreed to lend me an excessively large sum of money to buy up the entire world's supply of air on an interest only basis. If you want to keep breathing it you'll have to rent it from me for the maximum amount that your income will bear. You are of course entirely complicit with this situation. If you don't hold your breath indefinitely then you are choosing to breathe and thus this entire set-up is as much your fault as it is mine. You only have yourself to blame.

It's so resoundingly obvious I find it hard to understand how it could possibly need repeating but it is clearly speculators buying houses as investments that pushing up prices for those who want to buy for homeownership alone, and forcing those prospective homeowners to either put their lives entirely on hold and have no quality of life - to waste their lives "queuing", to give up all prospect of employment or a family of their own - or to put up with insecure tenancies and spivs and parasites lording it over them, and I'm-all-right-Jack homeowners blaming those who are less fortunate than them for being less fortunate than them. Kick them when they're down, right? They deserve it. It's not like the rental sector could operate in any other fashion. The only possible way to create a rental property at all is to take out a highly risky, financially destabilising, heavily geared, interest only loan from a crap bank because, as previously established, otherwise the houses pop out of existence.

Do you know who are actually complicit with highly leveraged BTLers? People who don't understand the difference between 'landlord' and 'BTLer'. People who pretend the BTL system of financing rental properies is the only way to have a rental sector at all. People who excuse the unethical, speculative and increasingly innumerate behaviour of BTLers and blame it on their priced out tenants. People who think younger generations don't deserve to be able to live as adults or have any real quality of life. People who think that those waiting around in their childhood bedrooms with no job, because there are no available local jobs, are in an imaginary queue for houses that they will apparently be gifted without the need for employment. People who think that only the asset rich deserve the chance to have children. People who think that life is cheap, at least when it belongs to someone else.

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That is patronising ********. Just because you are OK don't come on here talking down to anyone who rents because he has been priced out by BTL landlords.

The governments have been asleep at the wheel letting the banks lend IO to people who frankly have proved on Poverty later that they have no clue about CGT or taxes - who think they can punish tenants by making them pay their lawful taxes - who think they can keep people enslaved and begging with their 6 month AST.

It's time this forum got back to the serious business of the HPC that is coming down the line and stopped wasting space and time on landlords who can produce no evidence for their "investment" is anything other than banks looking for suckers.

Bland Unsight is 100% correct. The more time that is wasted arguing with one theme landlords then more serious discussions are sidelined.

+ 2

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Do you know who are actually complicit with highly leveraged BTLers? People who don't understand the difference between 'landlord' and 'BTLer'. People who pretend the BTL system of financing rental properies is the only way to have a rental sector at all. People who excuse the unethical, speculative and increasingly innumerate behaviour of BTLers and blame it on their priced out tenants. People who think younger generations don't deserve to be able to live as adults or have any real quality of life. People who think that those waiting around in their childhood bedrooms with no job, because there are no available local jobs, are in an imaginary queue for houses that they will apparently be gifted without the need for employment. People who think that only the asset rich deserve the chance to have children. People who think that life is cheap, at least when it belongs to someone else.

Hear Hear.

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Council houses should never have been sold off. BTL should never have been brought in.

Can't you see what has happened?

It has been a feed back loop. Bland Unsight is right when he says that BTL pushed up house prices and as house price have gone up the time it takes to save a deposit has gone up making more people decide to rent instead. and the cycle repeats it's self.

And the cause of that cycle is the BTLers and the crap banks, not the tenants.

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That is patronising ********. Just because you are OK don't come on here talking down to anyone who rents because he has been priced out by BTL landlords.

The governments have been asleep at the wheel letting the banks lend IO to people who frankly have proved on Poverty later that they have no clue about CGT or taxes - who think they can punish tenants by making them pay their lawful taxes - who think they can keep people enslaved and begging with their 6 month AST.

It's time this forum got back to the serious business of the HPC that is coming down the line and stopped wasting space and time on landlords who can produce no evidence for their "investment" is anything other than banks looking for suckers.

Bland Unsight is 100% correct. The more time that is wasted arguing with one theme landlords then more serious discussions are sidelined.

Most will never work that one out until it all goes peat tong and the bank takes their home from them

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Bland Unsight is 100% correct. The more time that is wasted arguing with one theme landlords then more serious discussions are sidelined.

But we're seeing even more bandwidth wasted arguing about whether person X is a troll or not - we're not even arguing a one theme with an LL.

In fact, it's worse - this post is part of a meta-argument about what we should be arguing about.

How the hell did people argue before the internet?

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Most will never work that one out until it all goes peat tong and the bank takes their home from them

But they'll just get 'help to stay solvent', so that people to did the right thing will carry on supporting dc, from the government, to buy the next election

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And the cause of that cycle is the BTLers and the crap banks, not the tenants.

The cause of the cycle was ignorance.

ignorance of politicians and ignorance by me.

I didn't know what happened would happen. So I can't blame tenants or anybody else.

Why shouldn't a youngster decided to go out and rent a house and get on with his life.(no reason I can see)

Noone had predicted what a disastrous choice that would be.(if they had a choice)

I didn't come on here to upset people.

But I think it is important that people understand the feed back loop higher house prices leading to a higher propendency to rent.More BTL

The BTL beast needs to be slain. Maybe a change to CGT. If a BTL landlord has got millions of pounds worth of capital gains owing when he sells his houses maybe he must pay 5% a year of what he owes while he still has them

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But they'll just get 'help to stay solvent', so that people to did the right thing will carry on supporting dc, from the government, to buy the next election

Can`t see any help alla HTB or the like for BTLers they are chaff to the wind when it comes to a percentage of the electorate, the BOE have also made it quite clear IO BTL mortgages are contracts between professionals and not consumers

My bet is the next move will be a ban or very tight restrictions on new IO BTL loans leaving the banks free to milk the current ones when they come to the end of their fixed rate term and revert to SVR

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Very good point. In the event of a downturn and negative equity kicks in, they'd be milked dry too?

Until they ended up in arrears and then they'd be repo'd, which is something lenders are much quicker to do with BTLers than owner occupiers.

Also Basel III risk weight changes should kick up BTL interest rates by a substantial margin (potentially quadrupling them) over the next few years without any movement in the Bank of England base rate and thus those BTL SVRs could be very hard to stomach indeed. BTLers who have interest only loans, which is the majority of them, are disproportionately affected by interest rate movements as the interest payment is their entire monthly payment. A quadrupling of interest rates would mean their monthly payments increasing by 300%, for instance.

Edit: Also, some (possibly all?) BTL mortgages have clauses in them that allow lenders to call them in if they fall below a set LVT, so BTL borrowers may well be forced into selling before they get anywhere close to negative equity.

Edited by Neverwhere
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But we're seeing even more bandwidth wasted arguing about whether person X is a troll or not - we're not even arguing a one theme with an LL.

In fact, it's worse - this post is part of a meta-argument about what we should be arguing about.

How the hell did people argue before the internet?

We do know what we're arguing about - and it is very important.

Read the book - which this thread. http://agoodbyetoallthatbuytolet.blogspot.co.uk/

Someone taking a lot of trouble, applying very sharp intellect, to structure occurrences in the market which had led to this situation.

Then for some reason I see a late 90s portfolio landlord on hpc who claims to have empathy for renter-savers, joins hpc. Bigs up his 'good landlord' mate with something like 100 houses (before I knew he also was a landlord for he saw no reason to disclose it) and openly wants more houses into a hpc, even when posting up new threads like these. Admits situation doesn't bother him.

We are only building half the homes we need - and younger couples are suffering most

4 November 2015
  • The latest household projections suggest that we need over 220,000 additional homes in England each year until 2031 if the projected growth in households is to be accommodated.
  • Currently we are building only 54% of that number - putting pressure on prices and rents.
  • The housing crisis is worse in London and the wider south east where 55% of the homes required need to be located.
  • Even if the homes required are actually built the latest government household projections suggest that couples aged between 25 and 34 will be less able to live in their own home in 2031 than their counterparts in 2011.

Does it not trouble you that you have/will be outbidding others for homes, with your investment property strategy?

No.

And a man who decides to post from the smug owner side, we should be grateful to BTLers for roof over our heads, 'bubble two sides same coin' / stay with parents... who thinks bankers print money out of their ass and that he should get super generous equity release terms, and that tenants paying big money in rent whine too much about issues such as broken boiler for he as an equity rich owner has done without heating for months. Up to people to make their own calls. Might be fun for you to play it down though.

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Renting is just queue jumping.If they band BTL everybody would have to save and buy. People that rent push up house prices for those that want to buy and make the years they have to spend in their childhood bedroom even longer.

If you say you had no choice that your parents kicked you out then you should be thanking the BTL LL because without him you would be living under a bridge.

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