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Btl Scum Regrouping And On The Offensive. -- Merged

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2 minutes ago, elephant said:

A quick google regularly throws this up...

The GDPR does not apply to certain activities including processing covered by the Law Enforcement Directive, processing for national security purposes and processing carried out by individuals purely for personal/household activities.”

I don’t think Landlords sharing the personal information of their tenants could be classed as “processing carried out by individuals purely for personal/household activities”.

Even if you have jumped through the hoops to ensure you’re GDPR compliant, you have to ensure that any entity you are sharing customer data with is also GDPR compliant.  I can’t see that little Facebook group of angry landlords all ensuring each other comply!

Good point.

I only have layman’s knowledge of GDPR but I know the fines are massive for systemic breaches. Institutes who believe they breach have to report things really quickly and matters are reviewed robustly as the ICO is establishing the working ground rules. 

It’s definitely not in the spirit of GDPR to set something up like this. One person bad mouthing another based on public knowledge is ‘fair enough’ from a GDPR viewpoint. But tenant and landlord information being deliberately shared is much more sensitive and surely wrapped in a contract. You would expect some professional privacy. 

ICO would be interested....particularly if the can work out who to fine 😆

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I

59 minutes ago, mrtickle said:

He's doubled down. Refuses to take down the group in the face of overwhelming advice to do so.

 

He can do what he wants - facebook is equally liable and I'm sure they wouldn't like the £bn fine the UK and EU governments would love to find an excuse to give them...

In fact I would let it run for a while once an initial complaint has been made before asking the ICO to investigate - that's all the more reason for faceache to be fined.

Edited by Houdini

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6 hours ago, Pop321 said:

 

This is definitely outside the spirit of GDPR around consent of use of personal information. It is certainly worth reporting. 

However less sure about the scope of GDPR...I might be wrong but possibly only applies to big corporates that the ICO can fine. Those big bad banks who are killing puppies etc..

Landlords are within scope for GDPR. There was a load of fuss about it on 118 about dealing with it.

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HMRC still on Buy To Let warpath, despite campaign flop - warning

https://www.lettingagenttoday.co.uk/breaking-news/2019/3/hmrc-still-on-buy-to-let-warpath-despite-campaign-flop--warning

There is a warning that the HMRC’s Let Property campaign, which received huge publicity and attention for some years, has so far had only very limited impact - and that the tax authorities are still to target buy to let as a result.

Accountancy firm Saffery Champness, using a Freedom of Information request, has discovered that the Let Property campaign has so far led to disclosures from only three per cent of the landlords originally anticipated. 

Back in 2013 the then-coalition government launched Let Property estimating that up to 1.5m landlords had underpaid or failed to pay up to £500m in tax in 2009 and 2010 alone

Those originally targeted included people who own more than one property, specialist landlords who rent to students, people with holiday lets and those who let HMOs.

In the five years since the campaign started, just 35,099 people have made voluntary disclosures to HMRC, only 2.3 per cent of the individuals originally identified, while of the estimated £500m in underpaid taxes a mere £85m has been recovered.

As a result, says the firm, the tax authorities still have work to do.

“From the outset, the Let Property Campaign was always looking much more widely than just traditional landlords. It also targets those who may have become accidental landlords – such as those with holiday lets or multiple occupations” says James Hender, head of private wealth at Saffery Champness.

“The tax system is becoming more complex and the burden is shifting further towards the taxpayer: this inevitably means individual mistakes and misunderstanding can happen. Looking at the data from the FOI, of the large number of tax payers who stated that they had either failed to notify HMRC of their original liabilities or hadn’t taken reasonable care, many would likely have been unaware that they owed anything at all" he continues.

“According to HMRC’s estimates there are clearly many more landlords who have additional tax to pay, but have yet to come forward. If this is the case, then these people would be well advised to contact the taxman sooner rather than later. 

“HMRC have been tightening the net on non-compliance and there are increasingly few opportunities for taxpayers to mitigate the risk of an investigation. This campaign is one of the few that remains open but, with the Common Reporting Standard online and the Failure to Correct penalty system in place (both of which will affect owners of properties overseas) it is likely to remain that way for only so long.”

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11 minutes ago, rantnrave said:

HMRC still on Buy To Let warpath, despite campaign flop - warning

https://www.lettingagenttoday.co.uk/breaking-news/2019/3/hmrc-still-on-buy-to-let-warpath-despite-campaign-flop--warning

There is a warning that the HMRC’s Let Property campaign, which received huge publicity and attention for some years, has so far had only very limited impact - and that the tax authorities are still to target buy to let as a result.

Accountancy firm Saffery Champness, using a Freedom of Information request, has discovered that the Let Property campaign has so far led to disclosures from only three per cent of the landlords originally anticipated. 

Back in 2013 the then-coalition government launched Let Property estimating that up to 1.5m landlords had underpaid or failed to pay up to £500m in tax in 2009 and 2010 alone

Those originally targeted included people who own more than one property, specialist landlords who rent to students, people with holiday lets and those who let HMOs.

In the five years since the campaign started, just 35,099 people have made voluntary disclosures to HMRC, only 2.3 per cent of the individuals originally identified, while of the estimated £500m in underpaid taxes a mere £85m has been recovered.

As a result, says the firm, the tax authorities still have work to do.

“From the outset, the Let Property Campaign was always looking much more widely than just traditional landlords. It also targets those who may have become accidental landlords – such as those with holiday lets or multiple occupations” says James Hender, head of private wealth at Saffery Champness.

“The tax system is becoming more complex and the burden is shifting further towards the taxpayer: this inevitably means individual mistakes and misunderstanding can happen. Looking at the data from the FOI, of the large number of tax payers who stated that they had either failed to notify HMRC of their original liabilities or hadn’t taken reasonable care, many would likely have been unaware that they owed anything at all" he continues.

“According to HMRC’s estimates there are clearly many more landlords who have additional tax to pay, but have yet to come forward. If this is the case, then these people would be well advised to contact the taxman sooner rather than later. 

“HMRC have been tightening the net on non-compliance and there are increasingly few opportunities for taxpayers to mitigate the risk of an investigation. This campaign is one of the few that remains open but, with the Common Reporting Standard online and the Failure to Correct penalty system in place (both of which will affect owners of properties overseas) it is likely to remain that way for only so long.”

Flop?

HMRC dont care if Busta's too busy getting tanned in Malta to notice their campaign.

They put some adds out - box ticked.

Now they go after LL.

Its really not hard. Various posters have stated the obvious many many times.

LL has a NI.

LL has mortgage or x BLTs.

HMRC have an API to pick an NI/name/DOB, call the banks servers and get a list of property owened.

It will take the HMRC an afternoon to consolidate all he LL owned property i nthe UK.

 

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12 hours ago, spyguy said:

Flop?

HMRC dont care if Busta's too busy getting tanned in Malta to notice their campaign.

They put some adds out - box ticked.

Now they go after LL.

Its really not hard. Various posters have stated the obvious many many times.

LL has a NI.

LL has mortgage or x BLTs.

HMRC have an API to pick an NI/name/DOB, call the banks servers and get a list of property owened.

It will take the HMRC an afternoon to consolidate all he LL owned property i nthe UK.

 

It seems ever so easy, especially with their flashy computer system we hear about.  So what has taken them so long? Why have they held back from what is apparently an easy job?

Unless it isn't as easy as it sounds.

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13 hours ago, spyguy said:

Flop?

HMRC dont care if Busta's too busy getting tanned in Malta to notice their campaign.

They put some adds out - box ticked.

Now they go after LL.

Its really not hard. Various posters have stated the obvious many many times.

LL has a NI.

LL has mortgage or x BLTs.

HMRC have an API to pick an NI/name/DOB, call the banks servers and get a list of property owened.

It will take the HMRC an afternoon to consolidate all he LL owned property i nthe UK.

 

Yeah mate and MMR has crippled lending etc. 

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10 hours ago, Ah-so said:

It seems ever so easy, especially with their flashy computer system we hear about.  So what has taken them so long? Why have they held back from what is apparently an easy job?

Unless it isn't as easy as it sounds.

Until S24 they relied on the LL telling them there was money to collect.

Now S24 has created a tax to go after, so they will.

 

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10 hours ago, thewig said:

Yeah mate and MMR has crippled lending etc. 

Just look at the lending volumes.

Flat lined.

 

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On 14/03/2019 at 08:06, spyguy said:

Flop?

HMRC dont care if Busta's too busy getting tanned in Malta to notice their campaign.

They put some adds out - box ticked.

Now they go after LL.

Its really not hard. Various posters have stated the obvious many many times.

LL has a NI.

LL has mortgage or x BLTs.

HMRC have an API to pick an NI/name/DOB, call the banks servers and get a list of property owened.

It will take the HMRC an afternoon to consolidate all he LL owned property i nthe UK.

 

If there's no mortgage - not uncommon - and a letting agent is not used, then in many areas there will be no record anywhere, let alone any official record, of whether a property is rented out.

In many areas you don't have to inform the council or anyone else, and even assuming that a LL does declare rental income, or some of it, the SA tax form doesn't ask for addresses, only how many properties. 

 

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Next step will be to track gas and electric meters. It would not be too hard to get a database, talking to six business you know who is paying the bill for 75% of the dwellings in the UK down to the exact address.

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1 hour ago, Mrs Bear said:

If there's no mortgage - not uncommon - and a letting agent is not used, then in many areas there will be no record anywhere, let alone any official record, of whether a property is rented out.

In many areas you don't have to inform the council or anyone else, and even assuming that a LL does declare rental income, or some of it, the SA tax form doesn't ask for addresses, only how many properties. 

 

Land Registry vs. Council Tax Register?

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Tenancy deposit databases are where I would start. That's an instant declaration that the property is being rented out.

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2 hours ago, Mrs Bear said:

If there's no mortgage - not uncommon - and a letting agent is not used, then in many areas there will be no record anywhere, let alone any official record, of whether a property is rented out.

In many areas you don't have to inform the council or anyone else, and even assuming that a LL does declare rental income, or some of it, the SA tax form doesn't ask for addresses, only how many properties. 

 

LL with rental of 15+ years probably dont have a mortgage.

LL with rentals 2002ish typically do - IO as well.

As far as numbers the UK private rental sector more than tripled from 2002, so Id say the majority of LL have mortgages.

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Just now, Dorkins said:

Tenancy deposit databases are where I would start. That's an instant declaration that the property is being rented out.

HMRC can access:

- Electoral roll.

- Land registry data.

- banks mortgage info.

- LL bank accounts.

Its a doddle to query and consolidate those.

For example, just using the business rate register I was able to search and find all holiday lets in my local and the adjacent postal codes.

Its took me ~10m to write the Python to parse the large (5Gb) CSV info.

Then it took another 2m to run.
 

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4 hours ago, spyguy said:

LL with rental of 15+ years probably dont have a mortgage.

LL with rentals 2002ish typically do - IO as well.

Seems a bit contradictory.  2002 to now is 17 years.  That’s 15+ last time I checked.  So they probably don’t or typically do?!

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7 hours ago, Mrs Bear said:

If there's no mortgage - not uncommon - and a letting agent is not used, then in many areas there will be no record anywhere, let alone any official record, of whether a property is rented out.

In many areas you don't have to inform the council or anyone else, and even assuming that a LL does declare rental income, or some of it, the SA tax form doesn't ask for addresses, only how many properties. 

 

You might not have noticed, but when I had to register with my local council tax office, there was a box to tick notifying them wether you were the owner of the property, or a tenant :)

 

now, unless tenants are happy to openly lie to protect their landlords, that could be an issue.

prior to 2016 I had never seen this on any forms before.

there’s a big database they are building out there! 

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3 hours ago, elephant said:

Seems a bit contradictory.  2002 to now is 17 years.  That’s 15+ last time I checked.  So they probably don’t or typically do?!

IO.

Only wat BTL workerd, numbers wise.

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13 minutes ago, spyguy said:

IO.

Only wat BTL workerd, numbers wise.

Was a bit muddled like most of your posts!  Fat fingers or lazy proof reading?! ;) 

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On 15/03/2019 at 07:31, spyguy said:

Until S24 they relied on the LL telling them there was money to collect.

Now S24 has created a tax to go after, so they will.

 

There has always been money to go after, especially after rates were slashed following the financial crisis. Friend of mine who has a number of properties paid up in full to HMRC for £70k.

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On 15/03/2019 at 10:12, Mrs Bear said:

If there's no mortgage - not uncommon - and a letting agent is not used, then in many areas there will be no record anywhere, let alone any official record, of whether a property is rented out.

In many areas you don't have to inform the council or anyone else, and even assuming that a LL does declare rental income, or some of it, the SA tax form doesn't ask for addresses, only how many properties. 

 

You have to protect the deposit and if you don't the tenant can screw you over. The perfect database, before you even have to bother with reconciling land registry with council tax. Or checking with letting agents and rightmove. 

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27 minutes ago, thewig said:

Are most of your posts made whilst driving? 

spyguy's posts are not always perfectly typed but the meaning is generally clear.

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  • 224 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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      • down 5% +
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