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Btl Scum Regrouping And On The Offensive. -- Merged

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If I was a BTL Landlord,

right now I would be telling other Landlords not to panic but hang on to what they have got.

Dangle the promise of court cases appealing against the new law etc., anything to stop them panic selling.

Meanwhile, I would be selling up as soon as possible. Just say nothing.

I wonder how our Mr Wilson is feeling?

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Geez, they really are scraping the barrel now.

I think someone needs to point out to them that if the government wouldn't renege on troops in Iraq, despite almost half a million turning up to Westminster, I don't think comparing oneself to the plight of the Jews in Nazi Germany and writing letters scribbled in crayon to your local MP is going to change anything.

:lol:

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Hello all, I've been reading the forum for quite a while now and have learnt a lot from your opinions, ideas and sense discussed about housing and many other topics. Thank you for this.

This is my first post and I'm not sure if it needs a thread of its own, if this idea has been mooted before or whether the idea is nonsense.

Anyways, I was at work last week and there's a fella who owns 3 BTLs, I asked him what he thought of the budget and he replied he hadn't even looked. I went on to tell him about the changes to tax laws within BTL and he replied, don't care I don't declare anyway. He then came out with the usual spiv type rubbish you'd expect from a greedy self serving landlord.

This obviously pissed me off and after thinking about the conversation for a while I thought is he the only landlord out there not declaring? Of course not, everyone knows some cheating landlord. Then I remembered the Government's campaign to shop Benefit fraudsters a few years ago. I think what HMRC needs is a little helping hand to identify these under the radar amateur BTLers and so they can eventually receive their nice juicy tax bills.

My idea is to create a specialist Shop A Landlord Tax Evader website, made easy with all the forms and info about BTL fraud, the punishments for evasion etc... laid out in laymans terms. Backed up by a strong social media campaign to get the word out there.

My web coding skills are non existent and my knowledge base about the subject hasn't sufficient depth, but I wondered if there's anyone out there with the right skills to make an idea like this happen?

This might be an workable idea, but I thought I'd throw it out there!

Welcome!

My first thought is that this opens up all kinds of problems with libel if individuals are openly named and shamed.

However, if it simply outlines the process required to 'shop' a dodgy landlord, it could be ok. If it was done as a consumer-watchdog site with something like 'ten things to check to make sure you landlord is legitimate' it could work. A quick google shows there isn't much on the web about this.

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...

Anyways, I was at work last week and there's a fella who owns 3 BTLs, I asked him what he thought of the budget and he replied he hadn't even looked. I went on to tell him about the changes to tax laws within BTL and he replied, don't care I don't declare anyway. He then came out with the usual spiv type rubbish you'd expect from a greedy self serving landlord

...

The argument that's been made on the thread, which I buy, is that up to this point, because buy-to-let 'works' by having essentially near zero net cash flows once all the costs (mortgage, letting agent fees etc) are netted off the rent, there has been no point in the HMRC chasing the spivs like your colleague, because the tax liability was trivial.

However, the paper trail, and thus the data trail, on buy-to-let investment can be seen from space, so now that Osborne has created a tax liability, your colleague may shortly find that he hasn't been flying under the radar after all.

I've not looked into any of this yet, but we could consider the GCT case as a comparison. This is a case where the tax liability already exists; how successful are spivs like your colleague in dodging the CGT?

(BTW - We should also consider the possibility that once the measures start to bite the HMRC will set up exactly the kind of site that you propose.)

EDIT: Great first post - welcome to hpc.

Edited by bland unsight

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Anyways, I was at work last week and there's a fella who owns 3 BTLs, I asked him what he thought of the budget and he replied he hadn't even looked. I went on to tell him about the changes to tax laws within BTL and he replied, don't care I don't declare anyway. He then came out with the usual spiv type rubbish you'd expect from a greedy self serving landlord.

You may enjoy the link below

https://online.hmrc.gov.uk/shortforms/form/TEH_IRF?dept-name=TEH&sub-dept-name=&location=39&origin=http://www.hmrc.gov.uk

Welcome to HPC

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Hello all, I've been reading the forum for quite a while now and have learnt a lot from your opinions, ideas and sense discussed about housing and many other topics. Thank you for this.

This is my first post and I'm not sure if it needs a thread of its own, if this idea has been mooted before or whether the idea is nonsense.

Anyways, I was at work last week and there's a fella who owns 3 BTLs, I asked him what he thought of the budget and he replied he hadn't even looked. I went on to tell him about the changes to tax laws within BTL and he replied, don't care I don't declare anyway. He then came out with the usual spiv type rubbish you'd expect from a greedy self serving landlord.

This obviously pissed me off and after thinking about the conversation for a while I thought is he the only landlord out there not declaring? Of course not, everyone knows some cheating landlord. Then I remembered the Government's campaign to shop Benefit fraudsters a few years ago. I think what HMRC needs is a little helping hand to identify these under the radar amateur BTLers and so they can eventually receive their nice juicy tax bills.

My idea is to create a specialist Shop A Landlord Tax Evader website, made easy with all the forms and info about BTL fraud, the punishments for evasion etc... laid out in laymans terms. Backed up by a strong social media campaign to get the word out there.

My web coding skills are non existent and my knowledge base about the subject hasn't sufficient depth, but I wondered if there's anyone out there with the right skills to make an idea like this happen?

This might be an workable idea, but I thought I'd throw it out there!

https://online.hmrc.gov.uk/shortforms/form/TEH_IRF?dept-name=TEH&sub-dept-name=&location=39&origin=http://www.hmrc.gov.uk

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There would be no naming and shaming of landlords, just a website to help make it easier for the general public to inform HMRC about landlord tax evading practices. Help with filling in forms, reasons and information to why we should inform authorities about such negative social practice.

I completely agree Bland Unsight that this can be seen from space and HMRC might be going after BTLers in due course, a website like this would just give the taxman an encouraging hand and I'm guessing once a report has been filed an investigation will take place?

There's a form for informing about tax evasion on the HMRC's site https://online.hmrc.gov.uk/shortforms/form/TEH_IRF?dept-name=TEH&sub-dept-name=&location=39&origin=http://www.hmrc.gov.uk

The sites dual job would be to provide negative sentiment about amateur landlords negative effects on community with a BIG social media push. If amateur landlords thought that remaining under the radar was less likely to happen and they were going to make a loss, could be a good deterrent and damaging to BTLers sentiment.

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personally i cant think of anything more offensive than using the holocuast for your personal goals.

The government are not restricting your movements or seizing your assets yet .......

Me too. Up until now I had thought the title of this thread overly harsh in the use of the word "scum", now I'm not so sure.

My thoughts exactly.

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...The sites dual job would be to provide negative sentiment about amateur landlords negative effects on community with a BIG social media push. If amateur landlords thought that remaining under the radar was less likely to happen and they were going to make a loss, could be a good deterrent and damaging to BTLers sentiment.

It could be worth making the suggestion to groups with existing sites and existing traffic - such as Generation Rent, Priced Out, Shelter, etc - that they might want to look into either setting up or sponsoring such a site in the light of recent tax changes. Might also be worth starting a thread with all the relevant forms etc and trying to get it pinned to the top of one of the boards here (maybe All about renting)?

Great idea. Welcome to the forum :)

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Neither can I. I’m sending out letters left, right and centre. We have to get it overturned. It’s wrong on so many fronts – it’s robbery by the State.

"Robbery by the state".

On the savers' side as well ;) The savers that have been robbed to help to subsidise low interest rates to help to benefit landlords..

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If I was a BTL Landlord,

right now I would be telling other Landlords not to panic but hang on to what they have got.

Dangle the promise of court cases appealing against the new law etc., anything to stop them panic selling.

Meanwhile, I would be selling up as soon as possible. Just say nothing.

I wonder how our Mr Wilson is feeling?

They are already thinking about

Read their forums there are plenty of them putting out the feelers you can sense the anticipation of who's going to jump first (do i don`t i) ,they know only to well the ones who jump first will get the best deal and the latter ones will be left with a catching a falling knife scenario,you can almost smell the fear

Edited by long time lurking

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There would be no naming and shaming of landlords, just a website to help make it easier for the general public to inform HMRC about landlord tax evading practices. Help with filling in forms, reasons and information to why we should inform authorities about such negative social practice.

I completely agree Bland Unsight that this can be seen from space and HMRC might be going after BTLers in due course, a website like this would just give the taxman an encouraging hand and I'm guessing once a report has been filed an investigation will take place?

There's a form for informing about tax evasion on the HMRC's site https://online.hmrc.gov.uk/shortforms/form/TEH_IRF?dept-name=TEH&sub-dept-name=&location=39&origin=http://www.hmrc.gov.uk

The sites dual job would be to provide negative sentiment about amateur landlords negative effects on community with a BIG social media push. If amateur landlords thought that remaining under the radar was less likely to happen and they were going to make a loss, could be a good deterrent and damaging to BTLers sentiment.

Please shop your colleague. HMRC will probably just send him a vaguely threatening letter threaten prosecution if he does not fully declare tax. It will freak him out.

A lot of people take the view that dodging tax is an acceptable crime and something that is a bit of a laugh. Once protection is threatened they crap themselves.

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That guy's priceless. Here's his latest post:

Often my children don't initially understand things, but they get it in the end.

I saw the same thing. I would counter that if you can't understand that income and gross profit is different to net profit then no one is going to waste their breath convincing you otherwise.

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I was surprised to discover that since my landlord lives overseas it was my duty to deduct tax from the rent I paid to him and remit it quarterly to hmrc. By the time I discovered this my liability was over £10k. Fortunately for me my LL does have the correct certificate to allow me to pay him gross (which I now have a copy of). It is quite an obscure tax law. I wonder how many are aware of it?

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I was surprised to discover that since my landlord lives overseas it was my duty to deduct tax from the rent I paid to him and remit it quarterly to hmrc. By the time I discovered this my liability was over £10k. Fortunately for me my LL does have the correct certificate to allow me to pay him gross (which I now have a copy of). It is quite an obscure tax law. I wonder how many are aware of it?

I'd PM this, but you've too few posts to make it possible.

Welcome to the forum. You are clearly rock and roll. Stick around and keep posting.

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Thanks. I have been reading for a while. The combined intelligence on this site is quite phenomenal (even including deluded scrapers). I have learned a lot but will only contribute when I feel I have something valid, relevant and hopefully new to add to the debate.

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...

The sites dual job would be to provide negative sentiment about amateur landlords negative effects on community with a BIG social media push. If amateur landlords thought that remaining under the radar was less likely to happen and they were going to make a loss, could be a good deterrent and damaging to BTLers sentiment.

You will find that we are a little bit battle weary in these parts.

I think that the things that get a big social media push tend to be politically neutral and inherently delightful (think pandas that sneeze), politically potent but distant ( think Kony), politically neutral with heart strings and impotence the the superficial appearance of engagement and the possibility of change (think ice-bucket challenge).

In these parts we deal with the deeply political, non-delightful, proximate and apparently immutable.

You are the revolution. Think different and act different and don't get caught up in the tide.

If this could be fixed with a moment of insight and a decent website, it would be fixed already.

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You have to ask yourself, if it is so easy to find these guys, why aren't they?

It is the same argument for if they wanted to build decent homes for people they could quite easily in fact. They can compulsorily purchase farmland at farm prices, they can borrow at near zero rates.

The fundamental reason must be they don't want to. The problem you have is not the lack of a website, but vested interests and power politics.

Welcome to the site.

.....if philby1 was serious he would have reported his bragging colleague to HMRC by now.....after all the guy is stealing his (and our) tax payments..... the little steps count ...... :rolleyes:

Edited by South Lorne

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That guy's priceless. Here's his latest post:

Often my children don't initially understand things, but they get it in the end.

I love the bit where he says "i've told quite a few lay people and they all get it".

I just bet they do.

I bet those lay people (presumably by lay people he means people who aren't savvy professional dragons den style investors) who are struggling to pay mortgages or pay rents are really pleased to spend the time listening to the whines of somebody who tried to have it all while they paid his taxes.

I bet as he walked away, there were a few bewildered exchanged glances, and a few muttered "what a *anker" comments.

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Kev Geer 16-07-2015,11:32 AM

RE: Are the Four Horsemen of the BTL apocalypse gathering?

As an investor/landlord in the ex mining arears of South & West Yorkshire I can honestly say the majority of my tenants have no interest, inclin or the finance outlet to buy their own home. Therefore hurting me as a landlord is going to invariably hurt them as a tenant, rent rises etc.We already have more tenants than properties and this is going to continue to get worse. Tenants/first time buyers don't buy because they don't WANT to buy...

Angela Bryant 16-07-2015,12:03 PM

RE: Are the Four Horsemen of the BTL apocalypse gathering?

I don't believe that rents can rise that much... certainly not for LHA tenants and especially in the south. We've already got many tenants stretched beyond limits with the even lower benefit cap making it almost impossible to live.... Workers too need some consideration - we can't expect them to just take all the pain, like kicking the cat...

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Mark Alexander 20/07/2015 at 23:28

Reply to the comment left by “steve sanders” at “20/07/2015 – 22:49“:

You might be right, I’m sure he would rather have 1,000 well funded corporate landlords that he could regulate than two million people he cannot control.

However, two million voting landlords and their five million tenants is a huge chunk of the population for one man to dictate to in terms of livlihoods and their homes.

Corporate landlords will be even tougher on tenants than housing associations and mortgage lenders in my opinion. They will cherry pick the best tenants and the housing crisis and homelessness crisis will intensify, especially for those for whom home ownership is not a conceivable option due to finances or work mobility.

Bloody hell they just do not get it do they? Tenants and landlords are not a voting block, they have opposing interests.

cameron-radical.jpg

Edited by Neverwhere

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  • 399 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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      • down 5% +
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