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Btl Scum Regrouping And On The Offensive. -- Merged


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9 minutes ago, Dyson Fury said:

10,000 !!

Really ought to follow that with some vintage leveraged landlord logic from Bosher:

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Thanks, Michael. I wasn’t sure on that point as I don’t deal with that aspect in my business. I don’t mind making the occasional mistake though when I’m corresponding with people who lie and mislead on a mammoth scale. It’s happened with tenants – you can say ‘please pay the £1,000 rent you owe,’ and occasionally they will come back aggressively with ‘I only owe £900.’ (well bloody pay that then!) It is sometimes the mistake that actually gets them to answer when they’ve been ignoring you.

  • If I'm wrong it doesn't matter because everyone who disagrees with me is a liar
  • Making demands for money you're not owed is legit if the other party is ignoring you

I think somebody's moral compass needs re-calibrating.

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2015.  BTLer:   Another interesting point though is how this move by GO is going to dash people’s dreams of getting a BTL or two instead of a pension and/or escaping the rat race and being their own boss (I always hated having a boss – not because I was unruly, but because I was too sycophantic). So it is an attack on aspirations and closing a door for many people.

 

Buying up all the homes, then being 'boss' ?  

It has been taken to extremes, over 2 decades, with BTLers having 3, 10, 20+ properties.    Flip reality.   Many BTLers would be far less likely to be homeowners today (or have the nicer homes), if BTLers had been all over the houses in the 60s, 70s, and 80s - as they have been in the past 2 decades.

 

On 10/22/2015 at 11:09 AM, goldbug9999 said:

The idea that you are somehow helping people is a complete fallacy, it would be like me cornering the market in dialysis machines, renting them to hospitals at inflated prices and then claiming I was "saving lives".

Your simply a middle man in the chain between someone's income and the mortgage payments to buy the house.

At the end of the day the world doesn't owe you a pension, especially one funded by other peoples income while giving nothing of value back to the economy. If you want an income then make a real productive investment in something, start a business, get a better job and save more money i.e. do one of the things the people who incomes you arn't able to farm anymore have to do.

 

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The fundamental error in the BTLers' reasoning about us is that they are true believer in themselves.

They fail to understand that an alternative perspective on them is consistent with the facts.

Amoral chancers disrupting other people's lives by making a daft and unsustainable pact with a bunch of banks that are so crap that they put themselves out of business.

Poverty while sat in command of £Millions/£Tens of Millions of housing. 

h/t Lavalas:  :)

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PovertyLater's favourite word is 'sophistry' and Bosher always accuses others of this as a way of announcing the great stream of sophistry (minus any cleverness) about to vomit onto the page. 

 

What horrible reality choices power and so many VI individuals have made, with a view of HPI+/wealth.  

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The ship told you a guilty system recognises no innocents. I'd say it does...  but only to violate it.  Once again, Gurgeh, it all boils down to ownership, possession; about taking and having.'

-Player of Games

 

 

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31 July, 2014

With a true free market, homes would be getting larger, better and cheaper in relative terms, in response to the demands of the consumer. This is not happening. New properties are about half the size they were in the 1930s and they have become so expensive that millions are now being delayed or excluded from homeownership.

The housing market is virtually the only sector where this is happening. Imagine if we, in the UK, were driving cars that were worse than they were in the 1930s. Relying on free market forces will not work so long as builders, lenders and private sector landlords can exploit the existing dysfunctional market. Things could even get worse.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Bland Unsight said:

The lender may have a 'right to consolidate'

(h/t to Neverwhere for link to the source on the UKAR Portfolio Landlord Disposals thread.)

Given UKAR are explicit that - except for where a BTL landlord is in default - they will use the Mortgage Express / Bradford & Bingley right to consolidate clause to require that any surplus from a sale go towards reducing outstanding debt (which is reasonable given their entire remit is to wind-up the bad lending of failed banks) rather than forcing redemptions on all loans at once (which in any case still leaves BTL landlords free to refinance elsewhere, away from the taxpayer-subsidised deals which they currently enjoy) it's perfectly compatible with paying down debt in order to minimise exposure to Section 24 (but not to use surplus from sales to pay the increased income tax liability directly).

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https://www.property118.com/cebr-says-house-prices-set-boom-25-4-years/97446/

What will the HPC crowd do now?

They’ve been hanging on for years waiting for their House Price Crash! They hoped the attack on landlords by the Government would bring about their beloved House Price Crash!

Instead it looks like there will be a House Price Climb!

A valid concern from the 118 crowd.

George: S24 & SDLT surcharge will be introduced.

118ers: that's ridiculous, it's unfair. No evidence we create a housing bubble.

HPCers: Hurray. 118 crowd you better sell up before you go bankrupt.

118ers: it's against GAAP principle.

MPs: Nope we are not going to back pedal.

118er: we will create PR stunt by wearing orange t-shirts.

Cherie Booth: This is ridiculous and it is unfair.

Judge: Get back to reality.

BOE : we are concerned about the BTL lending

PRA: We are introducing new rules for BTL lending. We will throw debt junkies under the bus to save the banking system.

118ers: We will put rents up.

Govt: To mitigate this threat, We will ban tenant fees charged by agents.

Market: Nope rents are determined by what people can afford not what you owe to taxman and the bank.

Someone: House price is going up .

118ers: HPCere are losers. They jealous of our success.

HPCer: :lol:

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, hi5lo5 said:

118ers: HPCere are losers. They jealous of our success.

PovertyLater seem to have had a relapse. I got the impression that Busta had realised that talking about HPC just amused us and provided FUBRA with a bit of free advertising. The 'message discipline' is all over the place at the moment.

I think we're getting to them. :D

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Dr Rosalind Beck says:

11/04/2017 at 22:26


Ha. We can see why the envy and jealousy gets out of control. It’s because others were too scared to take the plunge and buy a property when they could; they were scared that it might drop in price and they would have made a mistake. So they don’t act. They kind of freeze. Then the prices go up, they feel sickened by their mistake and so they pray for something catastrophic to happen so that prices can fall massively… Well, good luck with that one.

Prices gone up much for you, Ros? If you refinanced at peak prices in the wrong parts of Wales in 2008 then you're between a rock and a hard place, aren't you?

You take a narrow view of who we are.

What about the many HPC posters who are already owner-occupiers? Is there any space for bizarre things like an honest concern for their children and their children's generation in your moral universe, or did your moral and intellectual development stall at the "I want, I want, I want" stage?

What about the many HPC posters who joined the workforce after 2009 and want to live in London or the South and have seen nothing but prices already way out of reach and just rising and rising and rising every day of their working lives for eight years?

HPC is lots of things; both bad things and good things. One of the best things is that it is an open forum. You can try to pigeonhole us within the confines of your limited and apparently rather unpleasant little mind but just as with section 24, the way you see things is not necessarily the way things are.

If I was a failed academic I don't think I'd post lengthy emails intimating the onset of a nervous collapse, particularly not if those emails were also an amusing record of me being totally beasted by a leading academic who was repeatedly making the same point. You need to listen to Dorling, Ros; what you need most is what you singularly lack - perspective.

And BTW - that jealousy argument had a bit more bite before you started making public domain claims that section 24 would make you "destitute". I suspect that you'll be wanting lower house prices before too long. I'd bet my own money that the Beck Branch of the Bank of Mum and Dad faces a less than glorious future - and how can you pass on property to the kids if the local branch of the Bank of Reality just repossessed everything you previously held, including your own home? Delusional narcissism is not a practical investment strategy, Ros - get a life.

Edited by Bland Unsight
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13 hours ago, Neverwhere said:

Given UKAR are explicit that - except for where a BTL landlord is in default - they will use the Mortgage Express / Bradford & Bingley right to consolidate clause to require that any surplus from a sale go towards reducing outstanding debt (which is reasonable given their entire remit is to wind-up the bad lending of failed banks) rather than forcing redemptions on all loans at once (which in any case still leaves BTL landlords free to refinance elsewhere, away from the taxpayer-subsidised deals which they currently enjoy) it's perfectly compatible with paying down debt in order to minimise exposure to Section 24 (but not to use surplus from sales to pay the increased income tax liability directly).

Suppose a BTLer has a repeatedly MEW'd property with a very high LTV, which will trigger a large CGT bill if sold.  They want to sell it, as it will start to lose money under s24.  So at the same time they might want to sell another property, with a lower LTV, to generate the surplus cash to pay the CGT bill on the other one.  I don't think this will be a rare scenario as portfolios are wound down.  Does the lender's right to consolidate mean that they have first call on that surplus cash from the 2nd sale?  i.e. reduction of debt takes priority over keeping the BTLer solvent?  If so, the BTLer position is very bad; there is no way they can afford to sell the highly MEW'd property.

Edited by Dyson Fury
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"Ha. We can see why the envy and jealousy gets out of control. It’s because others were too scared to take the plunge and buy a property when they could; they were scared that it might drop in price and they would have made a mistake. So they don’t act. They kind of freeze. Then the prices go up, they feel sickened by their mistake and so they pray for something catastrophic to happen so that prices can fall massively… Well, good luck with that one."

 

Envy and jealousy?

Not from me (nor I suspect many others on this board).  I've got one house (bought and paid for) which is exactly the number of houses me and my family need.  I don't see the need to try and eek out a living by amassing 20+ houses (denying others the right to own their own homes) with an eye watering amount of borrowed money and basically act as caretaker for a bank while underwriting their risk.  Frankly I don't need the sleepless nights or self justification.  I'd like to think that I've got more to offer the world than being a bankers stooge.

More like distaste and pity from me.

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11/04/2017 at 22:26

Ha. We can see why the envy and jealousy gets out of control.

 

We've pushed back against that many a time, yet still many BTLers VI love to frame it that way, as well as casting them as future victims of injustice, and sometimes pointing to real episodes in world-history that were truly horrific, to project their own S24 circumstances against it. 

Maybe if more BTLers had chosen to make themselves informed  (and not be blissfully unaware) that not everyone was in awe of their moar-and-moar-and-moar 10+ houses for 1 person/1 family, they wouldn't have been so shocked and unprepared for Section24.   Political risk.

Many BTLers point to how HM Treasury now being bossed by young people.   What did they think was going to happen?   Other people exist who don't want some older cohorts to mew and buy up 2 more homes, kick back and be boss younger cohorts paying up rent.

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24/07/2015 at 22:24

I have been blissfully unaware of this HPC thing. Just looked at the site because a few people had mentioned it and it looked a bit boring. They want to get a life if they have to keep checking on what we’re saying. They must find us very interesting. But the feeling isn’t mutual. I won’t be looking at it again.
I have come across this phenomenon before though on a site discussing Spanish house prices – some people wanted to make sure they got the best possible bargain when the house prices had completely bottomed out. They were frantic about it; a very nervous, risk-averse type – they’d wet themselves if they found out after buying that they’d spent a penny more than necessary. So, of course, they probably never bought anything in the end.
Some of them are quite jealous, too, of course and bitter and vengeful. Personally I don’t give a bee baa boo if someone has got more money than me – but for some this is disastrous. And if you think about it, these are the supporters of the kind of anti-landlord campaigns run by Shelter and so of course they’re over the moon at this Budget proposal, which has pandered to their psychological problems and feelings of failure, perhaps (can’t generalise too much, as all kinds of psychoses and sociopathies could be at play here). Obviously, they haven’t thought about all the people, maybe some of them included, whose rents will go up and who may find themselves homeless when the landlords go bust. Yeah. Really clever.
Ah. I noticed one thing. They do think they are really clever. I saw some comments suggesting they think they are the intelligentsia and we are some kind of dullards. I’d be happy to compare certificates with them!
I didn’t see the sexist stuff, luckily.

https://www.property118.com/budget-2015-landlords-reactions/76164/comment-page-114/#comment-59655

 

 

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On 7/26/2015 at 2:39 PM, phantominvestor said:

Your psychological projection is off the scales. There are wealthy people on HPC and no, they are not jealous.

Historically people could afford somewhere to live. Unfortunately, that has changed. It is not jealous to want food to eat.

It is not jealous to want water to drink.

Nor is it jealous to want to own the land that you live on.

It really has nothing to do with comparing yourself to others which is what you think it is.

This is how you think of the problem.

But this is not how we think of the problem. You have taken your own view of the world and applied it to us and which we obviously do not have.

You admit we are clever, we do not pretend to be. Please read more of what we say and try understand and do not let your natural human defence mechanisms prevent you from understanding what we say.

Happy to compare certificates but the certificates won't save you from realising that your livelihood depends on you denying our message.

 

On 7/26/2015 at 3:32 PM, Exiled Canadian said:

+1

I post here because I don't want to live in a country where the only options the average person has to secure somewhere to live are:

1. To take on a potentially crushing debt.

2. To rent from an amateur landlord with the constant threat of eviction every 6 months.

I also think it's very bad for a country to have this mindset that people who make money from over-leveraging to bet on a single asset class in bubble are somehow "business geniuses". James Dyson is a business genius, Fergus is not.

James Dyson has created jobs and tax revenues for the UK, and saved me the grief of changing the bag on my vacuum cleaner. Fergus has leveraged up to buy some pre-existing housing. I'm pretty clear which one has made a valuable contribution to society.

I suspect I'm not the only poster on this board who is neither a tenant nor a landlord, but who is concerned about where this spivvy obsession with over-inflated property prices is taking our country and society.

 

On 7/26/2015 at 4:23 PM, phantominvestor said:

...From the tenants perspective, it's about fairness and a place to live and not feel exploited.

From the landlord perspective, we are all jealous psychopaths because we cannot afford a house. Well, no. We're annoyed because you priced us out with a system that has so far, only benefitted the landlord class.

If anything, the landlord class has benefitted far more and it has been tenants that have suffered the most from no security of tenure and rising rent costs making it impossible to ever have a secure place to live. Shelter is not targeting you. It is just evening up the playing field.

 

On 7/27/2015 at 0:20 AM, CunningPlan said:

This is the problem. We have been indoctrinated to believe that the LL is doing us a favour. WRONG. We, the tenants, are the customers. In my business, the customer is king (but not always right!). Why are we subservient to someone who, by luck or idoicy has rented a house from the bank and then sublet it to us?

 

On 5/25/2015 at 10:41 AM, Bland Unsight said:

...I am taking the side that as BTL is the last spigot of interest-only lending flowing into UK property, it needs to be turned off so that house prices can work back to levels that are in keeping with earnings, so that people can afford to house themselves and make separate make provision for a time when, because of age and infirmity, they can't support themselves with earned income.

I'd further argue that real house price inflation in excess of real growth in earnings is the wheel upon which the UK economy has been determinedly broken by generations of City spivs. The current crop of BTLer are just their latest quislings. We need to ban interest-only buy-to-let lending to mug investors because its an economic cancer and a moral wrong. We need to find ways to allocate scarce resources equitably and where possible make them less scarce. BTL just allows spivs and bozos to extract economic rents by virtue of the underlying scarcity. The fact that it is celebrated as canny and that people are jealous of other's BTL gains just illustrates "how low we done fall".

 

On 3/15/2016 at 8:45 AM, Neverwhere said:

+ 1

One can also be legitimately pissed off about something without being at all bitter or hateful. Assuming that expressing that on a forum dedicated to that particular subject means that it consumes the rest of one's life also seems wildly off base to me.

 

On 3/15/2016 at 4:23 PM, Neverwhere said:

Passion born out of deep and abiding concern for the quality of life of one's loved ones is the opposite of bitterness and hate.

 

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haha amazing!

" They do think they are really clever. I saw some comments suggesting they think they are the intelligentsia and we are some kind of dullards. I’d be happy to compare certificates with them!"

certificates in what? health and safety? swimming? certainly isn't maths.

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4 hours ago, Dyson Fury said:

Suppose a BTLer has a repeatedly MEW'd property with a very high LTV, which will trigger a large CGT bill if sold.  They want to sell it, as it will start to lose money under s24.  So at the same time they might want to sell another property, with a lower LTV, to generate the surplus cash to pay the CGT bill on the other one.  I don't think this will be a rare scenario as portfolios are wound down.  Does the lender's right to consolidate mean that they have first call on that surplus cash from the 2nd sale?  i.e. reduction of debt takes priority over keeping the BTLer solvent?  If so, the BTLer position is very bad; there is no way they can afford to sell the highly MEW'd property.

I think that - from what is available in the public domain - if the BTL borrower's loans reside inside UKAR, and they are not in default or otherwise in breach of their loan conditions, and they set out what they intended to do to UKAR in advance of doing it, they would be allowed to pay their full CGT bill on both properties first, and use any surplus to pay down outstanding debt second.

They'd still face a number of problems though. For one thing, if the exercise didn't reduce their portfolio's overall loan-to-income ratio it might have little impact on its post-S24 viability, despite reducing the total tax owed, unless the reduction in rental income was enough to bring the BTL borrower back into the basic rate tax band.

Perhaps of more immediate importance to the BTL borrower when considering the viability of this course of action is that they might well be in default or otherwise in breach of their loan conditions, in which case the consolidation clause could be used to force them to repay all outstanding debts in full, whether through refinancing or sale.

It's worth noting that UKAR have successfully enforced margin call clauses for loan-to-value breaches by BTL borrowers. Should the two properties sell for below the values expected of them this could well highlight that the valuation of the whole portfolio had been overly ambitious, or was no longer an accurate reflection of the local market, in which case such sales might trigger a revaluation of the remaining properties.

If the BTL borrower suspected that their original - now bust - lender's valuation of their properties (when last valued, including for mortgage equity withdrawal) was higher than what they would now be able to sell them for in practice, then they might well be wary of drawing this to UKAR's attention, because should their fears be proven correct this would result in all of their loans with UKAR being called in.

This will be a serious problem for all of UKAR's BTL borrowers if house prices decline generally, as not only would this leave many in breach of the loan-to-value clauses in their loan contracts, it would be impossible for them to hide this fact from UKAR or prevent them from finding it out and acting upon it in a timely manner.

Given the highly favourable - currently taxpayer-subsidised - deals that UKAR's BTL borrowers are on any requirement to refinance elsewhere will result in significant increases to their interest rate bills, if they are able to meet the underwriting standards necessary to do so at all.

With interest-only BTL loan terms often being shorter than those of repayment owner-occupiers some of these BTL borrowers will have very little time left to run and will be staring this prospect in the face as we speak.

If they find that they've positioned themselves in such a way that - now that some of the risks associated with BTL finance, and made plain by the fact of their BTL lenders' going bust, are starting to result in political and regulatory action - they are unable to refinance as each of their UKAR loans come to an end, they will have to either accept that their anti-social gamble on people farming and house price speculation is a failed venture; or chance all of the above by hazarding a sale each time, in what seems unlikely to be a consistently favourable market (and then being forced to confront the reality that their anti-social gamble on people farming and house price speculation is a failed venture, natch).

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5 minutes ago, Neverwhere said:

With interest-only BTL loan terms often being shorter than those of repayment owner-occupiers some of these BTL borrowers will have very little time left to run and will be staring this prospect in the face as we speak.

Could it be the case that your typical UKAR borrower knows that the game is up so is making the most of whatever income they can take over the next 2-5 years before their inevitable bankruptcy occurs....

Nah, having looked at the provertylater lot they still thing the giant property fairy is going to rescue them...

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51 minutes ago, Venger said:

We've pushed back against that many a time, yet still many BTLers VI love to frame it that way, as well as casting them as future victims of injustice, and sometimes pointing to real episodes in world-history that were truly horrific, to project their own S24 circumstances against it. 

Maybe if more BTLers had chosen to make themselves informed  (and not be blissfully unaware) that not everyone was in awe of their moar-and-moar-and-moar 10+ houses for 1 person/1 family, they wouldn't have been so shocked and unprepared for Section24.   Political risk.

Many BTLers point to how HM Treasury now being bossed by young people.   What did they think was going to happen?   Other people exist who don't want some older cohorts to mew and buy up 2 more homes, kick back and be boss younger cohorts paying up rent.

They lack the empathy to inform themselves about the wants and needs of others, or to realise how deeply inappropriate it is for them to compare their minor reduction in tax perks to truly horrific real world loss of life, or how poorly this reflects upon them in the eyes of anyone with a moral compass.

Landlords do more to promote a bad image of landlords than anyone, IMV.

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17 minutes ago, monkeyprojects said:

Could it be the case that your typical UKAR borrower knows that the game is up so is making the most of whatever income they can take over the next 2-5 years before their inevitable bankruptcy occurs....

Nah, having looked at the provertylater lot they still thing the giant property fairy is going to rescue them...

Agreed. Poverty Later may not be completely representative but they seem unlikely to pragmatically accept that they have painted themselves into a corner if that is indeed what they've done. (Of course, if the opportunity still exists to get out with at least some of their other assets and income intact they should come to their SeNSEs and Sell Now, Sell Everything. ;))

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This is fantastic news. A couple of weeks ago I was resigned to selling a property but I think that it could be worth staying put. Any cash flow problems can be dealt with by remortgaging my personal residence to release a bit of cash and this will keep me going while house prices soar.

When there is an imbalance of supply and demand, be in control of some of the supply.

:lol:

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11 minutes ago, Lavalas said:
 
 

This is fantastic news. A couple of weeks ago I was resigned to selling a property but I think that it could be worth staying put. Any cash flow problems can be dealt with by remortgaging my personal residence to release a bit of cash and this will keep me going while house prices soar.

When there is an imbalance of supply and demand, be in control of some of the supply.

:lol:

They are genius entrepreneurs over on 118.

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HOLA4425
9 minutes ago, Lavalas said:
 
 

This is fantastic news. A couple of weeks ago I was resigned to selling a property but I think that it could be worth staying put. Any cash flow problems can be dealt with by remortgaging my personal residence to release a bit of cash and this will keep me going while house prices soar.

When there is an imbalance of supply and demand, be in control of some of the supply.

:lol:

:lol::lol::lol:

I know Venger is going to scream at this but given my recent discovery of a stupidly cheap BTL rate (Coventry Building society 1.69% tracker for term) I went looking for something worth buying to rent out.

Nope not a thing that makes sense - and this is in the north east where in theory I'm getting yields of 6-8%.... Keeping properties down south with the forthcoming changes and the impact of Brexit still to kick off.....

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

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