Btl Scum Regrouping And On The Offensive. -- Merged

[Mossie]

2 hours ago, mrtickle said:

Very good point.

What happens when an unstoppable force (Ros's imagination) meets an immovable object (Section 24)?

Some of the BTLers complain very loudly about S24, when in many instances it just means a bit less wealth, maybe having to sell a few houses, pay some tax, and still be in far superior housing and financial position than many younger working FTBs - imo.*

Still enjoyed seeing so many BTLers caught entirely unawares in 2015 when S24 was announced, and for some months, even year or so after S24 announced.   Then all their 'must be a mistake' / 'Dear Mr Osbourne are you out of your mind' / petition power / 'get homeowners to fear HPC and sign petition' / reactions.  

So many BTLers assumed full-on tax-relief on BTL investing was a permanent, and they had made themselves comfy, thinking themselves so safe, right into a danger they did not believe possible.   The power HMRC/HM Treasury adjusting the rules, as they have done with many taxes in the past to counter harmful behaviours.

Millions of homes bought by BTLers, HPI, Gen Rent, BTLer MEW vs FTBs saving from earnings after rent, and no tax-relief at all for younger would-be homeowners.

"Wasn't competing with anyone.  No one else was in the Estate Agent wanting to view the houses."

*Although time will tell how many BTLers do regret their BTL choices with S24.   All these incorporating and washing out CGT reports, and tax-exiling it are getting annoying, if they are correct about it, and successfully escaped S24/HMRC.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Mossie

[Ah-so]

54 minutes ago, Mossie said:

So many BTLers assumed full-on tax-relief on BTL investing was a permanent, and they had made themselves comy, thinking themselves so safe, right into the danger.   

But it's a Generally Accepted Accounting Principle - everyone on Parasite 118 knows this, even if they had never heard of GAAP previously or understand guidelines for accountants are not laws of nature. 

[Mossie]

21 minutes ago, Ah-so said:

But it's a Generally Accepted Accounting Principle - everyone on Parasite 118 knows this, even if they had never heard of GAAP previously or understand guidelines for accountants are not laws of nature. 

   Read many BTLers claim GAAP on their side vs S24, and I agree it seems that many BTLers had never heard of GAAP previously, and moment they did hear of it, took to it as a shield of 'income-costs = profit'.  

Quote

BTLer: As I mentioned to you last night, I am really interested in your response to the views of the ‘experts’ on Section 24, especially those of ICAEW.

As far as I am aware the ICAEW is not a body that has carried out much research on private tenants.  Accountants don’t have a great record when it comes to issues of taxation and fairness. They are often implicated in schemes and plans designed to try to reduce the taxes paid by well off people.

Our current laws that have encouraged a huge rise in very unregulated private landlords that has been harmful.That is partly why the speculation is being taxed. Taxes on things that are a bad idea are very common.

Would you be complaining if house prices in Wales had risen more than they have? Would you have gone into this had you known what would happen including the tax changes that were to come? You speculated that they wouldn’t. You thought you were making a sensible decision – risk taking as you say. I think we should take the risk out of housing.

“I took a risk so I should be rewarded for that” is a very common argument that well off people use to try to make themselves feel better about their growing wealth. I don’t think housing, like health and education, should be managed  by this kind of behaviour.

BTLer:  As Section 24 amounts to a historical shift in accounting precepts and abolishes the centuries-old tax tenet that profit = income – costs.

You ask would I have done this if I had known these tax changes were to come. You say I ‘speculated’ that they wouldn’t. The correct way to express this, I believe, is to say had I ‘foreseen’ this. In fact, absolutely no-one foresaw this as even a remote possibility until the few months prior to the Summer Budget of 2015. How could anyone have believed that the Government would depart from GAAP?  There was no speculation because no-one foresaw it; there was no conversation (or indeed consultation) about it, because anyone who understood what so-called ‘tax relief’ was, knew that it was a misnomer, used to describe the ordinary deduction of finance costs in a business.

  GAAP is complicated.   I don't fully understand it, although... bim31005

Quote

 

1. Ascertain the profits of the trade for the period computed in accordance with generally accepted accounting practice.
2. Adjust the accountancy profits in accordance with any tax rules or principles which differ from generally accepted accountancy practice.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/business-income-manual/bim31005

 

And if BTL is classed as a trade..?    "I'm simply saying that..umm life finds a way."  - Jurassic Park.

With the 'centuries old tenent' the BTLers hide behind re S24'   

Announcement and introduction of Income Tax was only some 218 - 219 years ago (as some other people have pointed out to the BTLers about changes in policies and in life and about power), and Income Tax shocked any annoyed some people, but it seems to me real world need of Government matters more.   And Gov has the power. 

Quote

 

Income Tax announced in 1798 and introduced in 1799 as a means of paying for the war against the French forces under Napoloean.

....

Nicholas Vansittart was Chancellor when Napoleon was defeated. His inclination was to maintain some tax on income, but public sentiment and the opposition were against him. A year after Waterloo, income tax was repealed ‘with a thundering peal of applause’ and Parliament decided that all documents connected with it should be collected, cut into pieces and pulped.

The critics of income tax had won the day, but experience had proved that it was a practical means of raising revenue, that it could be applied fairly, and that concerns about invasion of privacy were largely misplaced. The critics were also frustrated in the destruction of the records, unaware that duplicates had already been sent to the King’s Remembrancer.

 

King's Remembrancer... that's like HMRC CONNECT today?

Pop321 suggests very few S24 caught BTLers will ever feel embarrassed about their position of claims on lots of properties... all these BTLers with 2, 3, 8+ houses, and Pop321 may be correct.   Such BTLers may complain to the end of their days about being 'hard-done by' despite their housing renterism being ridiculous.   

[Ah-so]

3 hours ago, Mossie said:

   Read many BTLers claim GAAP on their side vs S24, and I agree it seems that many BTLers had never heard of GAAP previously, and moment they did hear of it, took to it as a shield of 'income-costs = profit'.  

  GAAP is complicated.   I don't fully understand it, although... bim31005

And if BTL is classed as a trade..?    "I'm simply saying that..umm life finds a way."  - Jurassic Park.

With the 'centuries old tenent' the BTLers hide behind re S24'   

Announcement and introduction of Income Tax was only some 218 - 219 years ago (as some other people have pointed out to the BTLers about changes in policies and in life and about power), and Income Tax shocked any annoyed some people, but it seems to me real world need of Government matters more.   And Gov has the power. 

King's Remembrancer... that's like HMRC CONNECT today?

Pop321 suggests very few S24 caught BTLers will ever feel embarrassed about their position of claims on lots of properties... all these BTLers with 2, 3, 8+ houses, and Pop321 may be correct.   Such BTLers may complain to the end of their days about being 'hard-done by' despite their housing renterism being ridiculous.   

And of course interest tax relief is granted for businesses just not for personal investments. Case law has demonstrated that BTL is an investment rather than a business, so the fact that interest tax relief is granted at all, and will continue to be, is still an exception. If you were to borrow to buy shares or bonds as an individual you wouldn't get this relief. 

As a result, the ICAEW's view in the matter is highly questionable and probably reflects the personal interests of some of their leaders than a true interpretation of personal investment law.

[spyguy]

On 18/08/2018 at 00:19, oatbake said:

The questioning seems bizarre. Quite incoherent in places. Many of the 30+ questions seemed to be asking the same thing as far as I could make out.

Still it's nice to get confirmation that homelessness is not due to ASTs ending (and from the horse's mouth too). Another myth busted, just like the threatened rent increases that never came.

Shame nobody will read past the first 3 "points".

Anybody behaving in this kind of way must be surely facing financial oblivion...it's bordering on irrational ranting.

Maybe she ripped off one of those Scientologist QnAs and just replaced some words with BTL?

 

[spyguy]

10 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

How on earth did Imperial college get involved with the likes of the Wilsons. Even in a  "adjunct professor" role (i.e. probably paid £50 a time to give the odd lecture) it's seems an odd thing for somewhere with Imperial's focus on excellence to do.    

 

 

Money.

The answer to any daft incident in HE is Money.

[thewig]

Mossie = vengerbot 

[Neverwhere]

15 minutes ago, thewig said:

Mossie = vengerbot 

They're not Venger they're just the GFCF.

[thewig]

Gfcf? I’m sure it’s vengerbot or at least one half of vengerbot if the old vengerbot was indeed as has been speculated a husband wife posting tag team

[mrtickle]

Party on.

 

[Neverwhere]

58 minutes ago, thewig said:

Gfcf? I’m sure it’s vengerbot or at least one half of vengerbot if the old vengerbot was indeed as has been speculated a husband wife posting tag team

Which only goes to show that you don't know Venger very well. V and I are good friends. And that is not Venger.

[Bland Unsight]

1 hour ago, thewig said:

Gfcf? I’m sure it’s vengerbot or at least one half of vengerbot if the old vengerbot was indeed as has been speculated a husband wife posting tag team

It's not Venger.

Bizarre as it might seem I genuinely believe it might be the butcher's boy himself, posing as Venger. If you look through the posting on the Mossie account you can see that of late the poster is introducing stuff to do with the PovertyLater tax planning as if everybody knows about that stuff and is talking about that stuff whereas in reality it's just a punt that some desperate people feel they've been forced into taking because their financial planning was so crazy.

As best I recall Busta had the following problems

1. His mortgage brokerage business had failed. There was fraud at the High Wycombe branch (but there is no suggestion that similar events took place at the main Norwich branch). At around the same time (2009) Lloyds ceased dealing with Busta's brokerage (the two events may or may not be related). Unfortunately, at that point in time Lloyds and Nationwide pretty much were the buy-to-let mortgage market so a broker who couldn't hook you up with Lloyds was dead in the water. Consequently, the income from his property investments was doing the heavy lifting in terms of supporting him financially.
2. Not sure of the details of this, but I think he lost a big chunk of his net assets in a divorce. Post-2008 he decided to take the share of the portfolio he'd hung on to and grow it. In order to grow a portfolio you have to up the leverage. Hence Busta paddled into 2015 with a bit more leverage than he would have liked.
3. The other gut punch he took was that he made a big song and dance about refinancing a lot of his property onto fixed rate mortgages with lengthy terms (10 yrs? IIRC)  just before section 24 was announced. Consequently had he tried to deleverage by selling some property he would have incurred substantial early redemption charges (ERCs) when he paid off the mortgages early after selling up.

In addition to this he has the same problem as the rest of them in terms of a substantial unrealised capital gain which and the consequent meaty Capital Gains Tax liability that will fall due as and when he sells up. 

A reasonable way to frame what happened to Busta is that he took some risks and had some bad luck and ended up between a rock and a hard place. In order to avoid being forced into bankruptcy by his tax bills he moved to Malta. It remains to be seen whether or not his tax planning will be successful but there's no doubt that he was forced into it. It was desperation not aspiration. He moved to Malta but his dogs didn't. He's not a tax exile in a palace. He's in a poky little flat having had to sell his detached house in the UK.

When the Mossie account talks about "All these incorporating and washing out CGT reports, and tax-exiling it are getting annoying, if they are correct about it, and successfully escaped S24/HMRC" I take that as a clue that it might actually be Busta. He's the only person I've ever seen trying to frame things like that and the exaggeration of "all these... reports" suggests it might be someone whose perspective on things is anchored to the PovertyLater forum. - in reality there are no reports,  just the occasional bit of marketing from Busta on PovertyLater in the hope of scratching up a couple of hundred pounds of consultancy fees. Of course if it is Busta the fact that he has enough time on his hands to engage in this kind of thing speaks rather plainly to the consultancy workload that "all these... reports" are generating.

One of the many brilliant things about Venger's posting was the fact that Venger read other people's posts carefully, Venger thought about what people were saying and he identified the internal inconsistencies. I was on the receiving end of it myself and it was bracing but there was more truth in what Venger was saying about me than there was in the story I was telling myself. Venger's posting was, in the best sense, scholarly. That's why you can be certain that this isn't Venger, because whoever they are and whatever their intent, they've picked a tactic which means that the posting isn't scholarly - it's witless.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Bland Unsight

[Si1]

4 hours ago, spyguy said:

Money.

The answer to any daft incident in HE is Money.

Money and/or prestige

[mrtickle]

awesome post, @Bland Unsight

[Neverwhere]

Just now, mrtickle said:

awesome post, @Bland Unsight

+ 1

I'll add to that, that although they didn't work up the courage to post until V took a long break from the forum (and appear to have run scared for a couple of weeks when Venger popped back as, not being Venger, they had no idea whether he was going to stick around or not); if you check the dates the sleeper account was created at about the same time as Busta posted his grand conspiracy theory about HPC and Bland Unsight, though he couldn't bring himself to openly name him - How Three Dozen Morons Influence Anti Landlord Media

It seems an unlikely coincidence that the vast majority of the initial posts from a sleeper account created at that time were spent obsessively having a go at BU whilst also struggling to bring themselves to name him directly

[Neverwhere]

The on topic performance art aspect to it all has been decidedly amusing though

[Confusion of VIs]

2 hours ago, thewig said:

Gfcf? I’m sure it’s vengerbot or at least one half of vengerbot if the old vengerbot was indeed as has been speculated a husband wife posting tag team

Take your choice

GFCF	Gluten Free, Casein Free (diet)
GFCF	Gross Fixed Capital Formation (macroeconomic concept)
GFCF	Greater Fostoria Community Foundation (Fostoria, OH)
GFCF	Gaseous Fuel Correction Factor

[Neverwhere]

4 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Take your choice

GFCF	Gluten Free, Casein Free (diet)
GFCF	Gross Fixed Capital Formation (macroeconomic concept)
GFCF	Greater Fostoria Community Foundation (Fostoria, OH)
GFCF	Gaseous Fuel Correction Factor

Nope

(I'm just playing and dropping in references to amuse V should he choose to catch up on this at some later date, but the Gluten Free, Casein Free option is an inspiredly surreal interpretation. Kudos.)

[highcontrast]

Not to go off topic (this may deserve it's own post?) but from the daily mail in 2015, not sure if this was ever posted here? But the true definition of BTL scum IMO:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3015766/Dozens-MPs-rent-London-homes-claiming-1-3million-expenses-taxpayers-hotel-rooms.html

Is this still allowed?

[thewig]

2 hours ago, Neverwhere said:

Which only goes to show that you don't know Venger very well. V and I are good friends. And that is not Venger.

I know vengerbot as well as anyone else who reads the internet. If that aint venger, who the hell is it? because its a pointless imitation if it is, given its the same long rambling repetitive cut and paste work that "the real venger" used to be known for. 

 

My educated guess (which is as valid as anyone elses) is that its one half of the "old" vengerbot team

 

 

[Neverwhere]

Okay, if you don't want to believe that V and I are friends, then don't believe it <shrugs>

On 12/03/2018 at 22:30, Venger said:

Thanks Neverwhere.  Without your 5 year active involvement HPC forum Neverwhere, I may have sunk into some despair.  

So very clever on the technical side,  yet also with a superb ability to unravel and cut through so many vested-interest misleading positions, including those of the BTLers.  You really are a Mind.  And you really are objectively fair.   I have learned so much from you to my gain - including so many matters away from house prices; about life and life outlook itself.

Source

See above re. everything else.

[Bland Unsight]

42 minutes ago, thewig said:

I know vengerbot as well as anyone else who reads the internet. If that aint venger, who the hell is it? because its a pointless imitation if it is, given its the same long rambling repetitive cut and paste work that "the real venger" used to be known for. 

 

My educated guess (which is as valid as anyone elses) is that its one half of the "old" vengerbot team

Some of us have off-forum conversations via the forum's 'Messages' system (particularly useful for speculations which are libellous - or just gossiping about moody posters). You can fill in the gaps. The idea that somehow you know as much about a given poster as anyone else because you've read some of their public posts over the last three years is a bit of a stretch. Some of us have met up IRL FFS.

 

Edited August 19, 2018 by Bland Unsight

[Mossie]

7 hours ago, Bland Unsight said:

It's not Venger.

Bizarre as it might seem I genuinely believe it might be the butcher's boy himself...

When the Mossie account talks about "All these incorporating and washing out CGT reports, and tax-exiling it are getting annoying, if they are correct about it, and successfully escaped S24/HMRC" I take that as a clue that it might actually be Busta.

How is any of this on-topic?  If you're going this way again, I would prefer you to have me on 'Ignore' as you blazingly posted a few weeks ago, despite some moves of my own to keep things peaceful.     

It's clearly just an attempt to ridicule my anti-BTL positions and as contributor to the HPC forum, over your own.

 And once again, you're conclusions are once again totally wrong.   And I can only imagine you're positioning this way in suggesting I am a BTLer to seek to discredit my findings about BTL, over your own big-reveals about BTL/BTLers.

You have someone (me) posting many different types of posts that are against BTL/BTLers/BTLism, and you out them as a BTLer?

I am just a renting HPCer using the forum to find better understanding of the housing market.   Although that really is not helped by intellectually dishonest conclusions some people have been making in recent times.

Busta is tax-exiled in Malta, although maybe with holidays back to the UK.

Not that I really have any need to disprove your conclusions of me being a BTLer, when I'm clearly anti-BTL, I was at the Trafford Centre a few weeks ago (receipt) and I have now checked the Streetview and sure enough it's all owned by Intu.  

Last night I was at the Mecca Bingo 6pm to 9:30pm. (Receipt below).   Bingo can be fun.  Makes a change for an evening out, and get opportunity to relax and talk at the table during all the many breaks between the main games.   

Somewhere I have last night's receipt for the Chinese takeaway we picked up on the way back to our 'home' - a rental property owned by an elderly landlord who owns lots of homes, who began BTL buying them in 1999, and each one worth £100Ks more than he paid for them.  With the BTLers own home being worth £1m+ easy.  Retired 20+ years ago.  Life of rentierism and HPI for him and his wife.    "BTL; so Mainstream" vs my own good income as a renter for years against HPI and against BTLers choosing to buy up millions of homes.

I have far more reason to to call you out as a secret recent BTLer given some of the conclusions in your posts.   

Quote

The key thing about buy-to-let is that it has become a mainstream financial 'product' hence most landlords are just totally normal people who have just done what everybody else was doing.

Quote

Anyway, the main idea I was attempting to communicate is that BTL is sufficiently mainstream that many people who chose to engage in it probably don't think for a moment about whether it is wrong or right. Enough people do it that is gains a degree of social acceptability and therefore people are willing to engage in it  by virtue of a kind of daft exculpatory logic that if enough people are doing it then it can't be that wrong to do it. 

Although I doubt you any BTLer, but something else.  Seeing people as not capable and responsible for their own BTL choices.   Everyone has to think.  More so at ever higher property prices, Gen Rent being in news week after week for years, and where BTL debt is involved.

The big reveal.  BTL investors have no minds of their own.  BTL is just mainstream, everyone was doing it (except Gen Rent priced out who Rics Wales describe as dependent on PRS because of these house prices), and BTLers just 'totally normal people'. 

Totally normal people.  Clean hands.   Someone else responsible not the BTLers.  Safe space on HPC for BTLers if any squeeze on them, for 'HPCer best minds to find who was responsible for the BTLers failure' - if there's ever any HPC.

And come on.  I have ridiculed your position that centres on people (BTLers) not knowing what they're doing, because prices are up 50% and more since you and others held to this line years ago about just regular homebuyers, and during those 5 odd years, many more homes bought by your mainstream/BTL can't be wrong/everyone doing it BTLers.  They made their choice.  They're not stupid.  They have laid claim to more homes.  It's all on them as BTLers, win, or IF in future, there's tax bite on them, or even some HPC.  The BTLers are responsible for their choices.  All on them.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Mossie

[thewig]

My only reservation that it’s vengerbot is vengerbot used to get on with the milk monitor and doesn’t any more, but that could be down to the milk monitor losing the plot entirely and turning full heel / states witness sometime within the past six months. 

[Bland Unsight]

4 hours ago, Mossie said:

Bingo can be fun.  Makes a change for an evening out, and get opportunity to relax and talk at the table during all the many breaks between the main games.   

You're absolutely right. Bingo can be fun.

I also love a beetle drive.