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Dutch City Of Utrecht To Experiment With A Universal, Unconditional Income

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/dutch-city-of-utrecht-to-experiment-with-a-universal-unconditional-income-10345595.html

The Dutch city of Utrecht will start an experiment which hopes to determine whether society works effectively with universal, unconditional income introduced.

The city has paired up with the local university to establish whether the concept of 'basic income' can work in real life, and plans to begin the experiment at the end of the summer holidays.

Basic income is a universal, unconditional form of payment to individuals, which covers their living costs. The concept is to allow people to choose to work more flexible hours in a less regimented society, allowing more time for care, volunteering and study.

University College Utrecht has paired with the city to place people on welfare on a living income, to see if a system of welfare without requirements will be successful.

The Netherlands as a country is no stranger to less traditional work environments - it has the highest proportion of part time workers in the EU, 46.1 per cent. However, Utrecht's experiment with welfare is expected to be the first of its kind in the country.

An interesting idea, it will be fascinating to see how this plays out. However it would be too expensive to try here with our rents.

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We could bring it in now in the UK without touching housing benefit. Not that I want housing benefit leaving alone but that's another problem entirely.

I haven't got all my figures to hand but this is either from a starting point of £72 or £80 per week and from memory, something like half for kids and more for pensioners.

The gross cost is £310bn. This is paid for primarily by:

  • £90bn from abolishing the Personal Tax Allowance, which it replaces
  • £94bn from current pensions, which it replaces
  • £38bn from working age employment, maternity, and statutory sickness benefits, which it replaces
  • £38bn from child benefit and child tax credit, which it replaces
  • £22bn from removing the primary threshold for NI contributions
  • £17bn from removing relief on private pension contributions

These amount to £299bn. The other £11bn is made up of efficiency savings and saving negative tax credits on child and working tax credits.

I'm not intending to suggest this is a "full costing" and it doesn't take into account behavioural changes that would change the tax take but it does show that most of the cost of bringing in a citizens income/basic income whatever you want to call it, can be done just by shuffling existing benefits and getting rid of personal tax allowances.

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/dutch-city-of-utrecht-to-experiment-with-a-universal-unconditional-income-10345595.html

An interesting idea, it will be fascinating to see how this plays out. However it would be too expensive to try here with our rents.

Won't it just push rents up? My understanding was that a basic income could only work in conjunction with some form of LVT. Otherwise you just subsidise the rent seekers.

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exactly. another brilliant scam from clodhoppers that brought you the tulip bulb bubble. its insane. the sooner this insane fiat based wealth tranfer bull5hit blows up the better. there is no such thing as free 5hit...

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to place people on welfare on a living income, to see if a system of welfare without requirements will be successful.

suggests they're just removing some of the conditionality for those already on welfare, but may be reading it wrong.

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Well, I`m getting £34 a week in "for life" benefits plus £40 from my savings to last for over 10 years when I can get the state pension. (£20,000 from savings)

I`m livin` the life!!

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Also tried in India but with a limited duration of 12-18 months. I seem to remember that the results seen were that the villagers started getting together to build communal toilets and improve sanitation.

I expect it is difficult to give up doing anything productive at all due to boredom. Hence why so many retired people do voluntary work.

I also doubt that everyone would just stop being productive. Many people want nice cars, houses, private education for the kids and holidays. They wouldn't get them from a basic income and so they would continue to work.

Edited by doahh

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are you taking the pi66 ?.. as soon as i get the free money am out of dodge mate..trust me. tis true there are some idiots that have no life outside bein a corporate slave. poor fkers

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/dutch-city-of-utrecht-to-experiment-with-a-universal-unconditional-income-10345595.html

An interesting idea, it will be fascinating to see how this plays out. However it would be too expensive to try here with our rents.

Fortuneately, the Dutch know how to cut down the parasitic landlord cartel with container modular housing

http://www.tempohousing.com/

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=tempohousing&num=100&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHFX_en-GBGB455GB455&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=5WOMVeOpMIGqU-ixk_gC&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1240&bih=643

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eh? fk that just give me the free money so i dont have to go to work 5 days a week....

It's funny in a way- as soon as the idea of basic income is suggested this notion gets put forward; give people a basic income and they will immediately stop working, put their feet up and do nothing.

But if we look at the tax issue another entirely different objection is raised- we can't tax the rich too much- we are told- because they will only work if they can get to keep most of the money.

But this can't be right, can it? After all if we know that having even a basic income will lead to indolence then we also know that the way to keep the rich working is to tax them at a rate so high that they don't fall into this indolence trap-right?

So the way to make the wealthy work harder is to tax them more?

So which is it? Do people quit working as soon as their basic needs are met? Or would they continue to work in order to get a higher standard of living?

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This is a very interesting experiment that will give us some useful data on how such a 'unconditional' scheme compares with a conditional one.

I doubt it will get rid of illiterate ranting against the very idea, but never mind.

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Basic income won't happen because it frees people from the yoke of the state to make their own decisions about their lives. Doing nothing, people would most probably be bored out of their mind. They may need more money, they may feel the need to do something useful with their time.

Wouldn't be good for the rentier / credit driven world we have now. A politician turning up with the idea of Basic Income and arguing for it isn't going to happen from any of the PPE / Common Purpose crowd.

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It's funny in a way- as soon as the idea of basic income is suggested this notion gets put forward; give people a basic income and they will immediately stop working, put their feet up and do nothing.

But if we look at the tax issue another entirely different objection is raised- we can't tax the rich too much- we are told- because they will only work if they can get to keep most of the money.

But this can't be right, can it? After all if we know that having even a basic income will lead to indolence then we also know that the way to keep the rich working is to tax them at a rate so high that they don't fall into this indolence trap-right?

So the way to make the wealthy work harder is to tax them more?

So which is it? Do people quit working as soon as their basic needs are met? Or would they continue to work in order to get a higher standard of living?

I can't remember where I saw it but there was some study/survey/something that said $75,000 was the golden income (net? gross?) and after that earning more money didn't actually make you any happier. If this is true why do people strive to earn megabucks, keeping up with Joneses or even getting one over on the Joneses? Merchant banker Wayne Kerr earns £125k pa so I need to earn the same amount, whether it makes the person happier or whether they need the money doesn't actually count any more perhaps, whereas the difference between £20k and £25k might mean the family gets a summer holiday.

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Won't it just push rents up? My understanding was that a basic income could only work in conjunction with some form of LVT. Otherwise you just subsidise the rent seekers.

It would do the opposite. A few million folk telling their landlords they could only pay x instead of y rent from now on ?

Because a citizens income would result in less money available for those on benefits - and there are lots of them.

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Exactly. To a great extent, LVT and full reserve banking are more important components of this total system. Taking this in isolation almost seems designed to fail as configured.

You do realise that a citizens income will result in LESS money for the people in this country who keep an artificial prop under rents due to housing benefit ?

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You do realise that a citizens income will result in LESS money for the people in this country who keep an artificial prop under rents due to housing benefit ?

May be easier to pay housing costs in the Netherlands from a basic income given that the country has rent controls.

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May be easier to pay housing costs in the Netherlands from a basic income given that the country has rent controls.

The millions in a country who set the base for rents - only now having x to pay instead of y - is effectively a rent control.

A citizens income set at a 'sensible' level is a rent control - without the need of actually putting one in place

And hence the reason why the UK is likely to be the last place in Europe to try such a thing. We are a rentier land run by a small number of asset holders who don't want to give that up.

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/dutch-city-of-utrecht-to-experiment-with-a-universal-unconditional-income-10345595.html

An interesting idea, it will be fascinating to see how this plays out. However it would be too expensive to try here with our rents.

If you set it to rents on the basis that everyone have their own house that'll always be unaffordable.

If you set it to what's affordable and get rid of all means-tested benefits (and the associated bureaucracy and corruption), the market will adapt.

Some sensible figures for Blighty are here.

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Won't it just push rents up? My understanding was that a basic income could only work in conjunction with some form of LVT. Otherwise you just subsidise the rent seekers.

Housing benefit pushes rents up - especially because recipients have no incentive to look for lower rents (they don't get to keep the difference). A universal income has the opposite effect.

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