Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
Quicken

Email Scam Leading To People Losing Money For House Deposits

Recommended Posts

The Victoria Derbyshire show this morning featured a woman who lost almost £50k in an email scam. What was the £50k for? Why, a boomer BTL purchase - my BTL is my pension. Of course, she was scammed after her email account was hacked because she was using a rubbish password. Clever. Rarely a more deserving scam victim.

I lost life savings in email scam

A woman has told the Victoria Derbyshire programme how she was conned out of her life savings by scammers who sent her a 'phishing' email.

Vivian Gabb was in the final stages of buying a house when criminals hacked her email account and sent a message, purportedly from her solicitor, asking for nearly £50,000 to be paid into their account.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02vh3ys

I'm going to be 60 years old next year. I don't have a pension, and I thought that with my life savings I could get a buy-to-let property outside of London...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not your BTL pension any more is it. Haha. You fool.

Although it's a risk for everyone - and fake conveyancers too - but I don't much care at these house prices.

'Fraudsters hacked emails to my solicitor and stole £340,000 from my property sale'
In a growing form of cybercrime fraudsters are targeting property sellers and their solicitors
16 May 2015

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/mortgages/11605010/Fraudsters-hacked-emails-to-my-solicitor-and-stole-340000-from-my-property-sale.html

&
http://www.hopkins-solicitors.co.uk/dont-get-caught-out-conveyancing-scam/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BBC News were running that article all morning. I actually felt really sorry for her, she didn't do anything wrong other than to fall for an elaborate scam. Two scams actually, the first was buying a BTL at the top of the market, the second was the theft of her deposit.

What did annoy me though was the underlying BBC propaganda that she was only doing what everyone else does by providing for her retirement by buying a rental property as if that is the only available option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BBC News were running that article all morning. I actually felt really sorry for her, she didn't do anything wrong other than to fall for an elaborate scam. Two scams actually, the first was buying a BTL at the top of the market, the second was the theft of her deposit.

What did annoy me though was the underlying BBC propaganda that she was only doing what everyone else does by providing for her retirement by buying a rental property as if that is the only available option.

Maybe you could compensate her our of your vast financial resources?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe you could compensate her our of your vast financial resources?

Eh? I don't think she should be compensated but does that mean I can't feel sorry for her?

Just to make it crystal clear, I am vehemently against bailouts and compensating people for their financial mistakes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even with the low annuity rates of today - compared to a £50k btl in what must be a fairly rough part of the country - would the return be hugely different ?

Never mind void periods, maintenance , agency fees and the rest of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eh? I don't think she should be compensated but does that mean I can't feel sorry for her?

Just to make it crystal clear, I am vehemently against bailouts and compensating people for their financial mistakes.

Good, but even so, we make our own decisions. BTL for pension. Price paid (no doubt oubidding a renter-saver).

Only yesterday I told Winkie I wouldn't be cheapskating it with a conveyancer, vs how it's not that difficult. How I'm willing to pay a premium... experience / indemnity insurance etc etc.

Don't deal with financial via emails, as per Telegraph article above. Not my fault people make such decisions.

I don't feel sorry for her. Would she feel sorry for her tenants... she'd just want the rent.

I'll be paying for highly experienced conveyancing solicitor. Yes, you can do it yourself, but I wouldn't want to, where hundreds of thousands of pounds are involved.

Posing as Mr Lupton, the fraudsters swiftly emailed Perry Hay & Co again – from the same email account – and told it to disregard the previous details and send the money to a different account instead.

The sale completed as planned and the solicitor sent the funds, worth just over £333,000 after fees and charges, to the criminals’ account.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is worth a trip to the bank and paying the £20 for a bankers draft to get round this....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This BTL-as-a-pension thing - so many questions:-

  • if a pensioner sinks their savings into a BTL, isn't this locking up so much of their pension into bricks and mortar? so they have a property they live in, then they put all their savings into a 2nd property? Maybe they have to downsize to do this?
  • even so, now you rely on someone giving you money every month (your tenants) - what about voids, letting fees, maintenance etc - what if you have a void for 3 months - where does your income come from?
  • OR - pensioners take on a mortgage - then what kind of profit are you looking at even if you have a consistently rented out property? £100 a month or so? I guess this tops up the state pension.....but bloody hell, you can make that doing casual "work from home"-type jobs through the month for that small amount of money

I just don't get it - am I missing something? Is the BTL-as-retirement-dream actually a possible way to make a clean £600-£700+ profit a month, which ONLY THEN starts to look like a reasonable (not stellar) supplement to the state pension.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is worth a trip to the bank and paying the £20 for a bankers draft to get round this....

The sending a random small amount first (£1.27) electronically, then getting full confirmation from the other side (who you want to receive it) before sending full balance, is a good idea.

I once sent funds to wrong account (1 digit wrong in error) and it can place you in a difficult situation to get the money back - even if it's recently got slightly easier. Thankfully there was no such account in existence and the money bounced back in 3 days.

Also paid in a bankers-draft one time, directly at my own branch into my own account, and began to feel uneasy when the funds hadn't cleared 4 days later. I thought it had gone missing (on the banks side). Perhaps someone here knows the latest position on how long bankers drafts take to clear? I don't think it's immediately but has to go through a process like a normal cheque. I've just had a google and am still not certain.

Remember: banker’s drafts aren’t guaranteed against fraud. If you lose one or it’s stolen, someone else could use it fraudulently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If she didnt make the instruction, then the money stolen wasnt hers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This BTL-as-a-pension thing - so many questions:-

I just don't get it - am I missing something? Is the BTL-as-retirement-dream actually a possible way to make a clean £600-£700+ profit a month, which ONLY THEN starts to look like a reasonable (not stellar) supplement to the state pension.

Historical long-wave stellar HPI performance. Greed. We're not responsible for their investment choices.

I want one of the BTLers own homes, at distressed-crashed value, in a HPC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is worth a trip to the bank and paying the £20 for a bankers draft to get round this....

I'm surprised she could make a £50,000 without going into the branch. I need to go in with photo ID to make large transfers, and they ask for the name as well as account details for the transfer, at which point the bank should discover the details don't match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good, but even so, we make our own decisions. BTL for pension. Price paid (no doubt oubidding a renter-saver).

Only yesterday I told Winkie I wouldn't be cheapskating it with a conveyancer, vs how it's not that difficult. How I'm willing to pay a premium... experience / indemnity insurance etc etc.

Don't deal with financial via emails, as per Telegraph article above. Not my fault people make such decisions.

I don't feel sorry for her. Would she feel sorry for her tenants... she'd just want the rent.

Solicitors should only be sending and receiving money from accounts in the client's name and need to verify the identity of clients. Money laundering regulations I believe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, just wiring £50k like that without checking with her own solicitor. However people can easily be led on by a good confidence trick and this was certainly that.

A very costly lesson to learn, however considering it was all electronic money how hard can it be to track down?

Although I do feel sorry for her, its a terrible mistake to have made and she'll never recovery from it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Solicitors should only be sending and receiving money from accounts in the client's name and need to verify the identity of clients. Money laundering regulations I believe.

That fast electronic payment system, and BACs too I believe, doesn't work on name.

It's all on Sort-Code and Account number. The name might be in the sending info, but it will still go to the Sort-Code and Account Number, regardless if it's for a different name/company name. The name is irrelevant to the electronic transfer.

(So I was told by HSBC a few years ago, over the telephone, when I was worried about getting a large-ish sum I'd make an error with a/c number on when sending).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If she didnt make the instruction, then the money stolen wasnt hers.

That's what I'd have thought. The bank has a responsibility to check the customers identity particularly before they enact a large transfer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She was lucky to get scammed from the start rather than getting completely done up later on.

And what`s wrong with the state pension anyway? Surely its enough for a normal human being to live on....

Edited by council dweller

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If she sent money, electronically, to a Sort-Code and Account Number, that wasn't her solicitor's actual sort-code and account numer (the email she received by scammers) then she's liable/her loss, if scammers have already removed the money.

Watch the video again.

She did that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eh? I don't think she should be compensated but does that mean I can't feel sorry for her?

Just to make it crystal clear, I am vehemently against bailouts and compensating people for their financial mistakes.

Good, but even so, we make our own decisions. BTL for pension. Price paid (no doubt oubidding a renter-saver).

Only yesterday I told Winkie I wouldn't be cheapskating it with a conveyancer, vs how it's not that difficult. How I'm willing to pay a premium... experience / indemnity insurance etc etc.

Don't deal with financial via emails, as per Telegraph article above. Not my fault people make such decisions.

I don't feel sorry for her. Would she feel sorry for her tenants... she'd just want the rent.

Casting myself as Lisa Simpson offering up an answer to a question nobody asked, I get where Venger is coming from, (though I think throwing mud at Bruce is ill-judged).

My read is that Venger is making the point very forcefully that any sympathy we actually have for this clown is barely even skin deep; it's not like she's some Haitian shitting out her life thanks to some Nepali UN peace keeper introducing cholera into the water.

Further, given what the supposed victim was engaged in at the time the extent to which we have any sympathy should be tempered even further. She thought she was robbing a bank; getting her hands on free money. The fact that she needed to f**k over somebody else's access to affordable housing to do so doesn't concern her for a moment. If you're a nurse walking to work and you trip over a broken paving stone and wreck your knee, I have sympathy. If you're a mugger fleeing the scene of the crime and the same fate befalls you, I'd celebrate your fall.

I think there are better targets for sympathy than this clown, and I'd question whether she deserves any sympathy at all.

The heart of this story is that she has no pension. Tipping £50k into buy-to-let would have given her the illusion of a possible pension until she actually lived with the investment and tried to live off it. She's effectively used the scam as a time machine; porting her a relatively short distance into the future for which she'd been laying the groundwork throughout her economically useful life. Fools and their money, end of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's what I'd have thought. The bank has a responsibility to check the customers identity particularly before they enact a large transfer.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Santander has often contacted me via telephone, when I've arranged a large payment, to check I have arranged it. Not to question the person I'm paying it to.

Although they didn't last time when I sent my sister £7K. They can't check all transactions.

There's different limits for max you can send, with banks under faster-payment-service, but perhaps she paid by some other way.. CHAPS perhaps.

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/mortgages/2014/11/customers-being-ripped-off-by-banks-on-faster-payments-limits

Barclays, for example. http://ask.barclays.co.uk/help/day2day_banking/bacs_and_chaps

What’s the difference between Bacs, CHAPS and Faster Payments?

..CHAPS guarantees same-day payment so long as the instructions are received by 2pm on a working day. There’s no limit to the amount of money you can send, although there is a £25 charge for this service.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Further, given what the supposed victim was engaged in at the time the extent to which we have any sympathy should be tempered even further. She thought she was robbing a bank; getting her hands on free money. The fact that she needed to f**k over somebody else's access to affordable housing to do so doesn't concern her for a moment. If you're a nurse walking to work and you trip over a broken paving stone and wreck your knee, I have sympathy. If you're a mugger fleeing the scene of the crime and the same fate befalls you, I'd celebrate your fall.

I think there are better targets for sympathy than this clown, and I'd question whether she deserves any sympathy at all.

Exactly that Bland Unsight.

I would be feeling some sympathy if it occurred to FTBs, but then I am not buying because prices are so high, and have already stated I will be using an expensive conveyancer who is wise to many of the risks, and wjp will treble-check my payment to them is to correct sort-code/account number (details sent via letter, and confirmed maybe in person at their office... not via just email), and that my payment to seller is to the exact account it needs to be paid into.

I like Bruce. He's got a capitalist history.. selling his business at high price before market turned etc. Proper HPCer in so many other ways, against HPI. Just think his sympathy is mistaken in this case. There are risks out there in markets. BTL for her pension. Sending her payment to a sort-code and account number from an email. We can't protect everyone. If the bank were to compensate her, for her own choices/decisions/mistake... where would the money to compensate her come from. Shareholders/other depositors having interest rates held down?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Historical long-wave stellar HPI performance. Greed. We're not responsible for their investment choices.

I want one of the BTLers own homes, at distressed-crashed value, in a HPC.

2009/10. tons of btl repos, lots of threads at the time.

Next recession will be the next opportunity but likely only a mild one. Zero chance of nominals falling below 2009.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • The Prime Minister stated that there were three Brexit options available to the UK:   35 members have voted

    1. 1. Which of the Prime Minister's options would you choose?


      • Leave with the negotiated deal
      • Remain
      • Leave with no deal

    Please sign in or register to vote in this poll. View topic


×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.