Neverwhere Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Submission for the BTL list (h/t Venger): buckers It would be quite easy to use the news today as an excuse to write to your tenants and inform them that the government has just put their rent up? http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/205534-tax-relief-on-buy-to-let-mortgage-interest/?p=1102750209 I cancelled my pensions and bought into BTL. Luckily for me this was the early nineties. I see no difference between giving your money every month to the tricky con-merchants that make up the City of London and BTL. You're simply trying to defer consumption and save that wealth in a way that might reliably be drawn down in the future. Just think of the damage the City has inflicted upon society over the last twenty years.There is a general anti-BTL meme on HPC, but really - What are people supposed to do with their savings? And please don't suggest anything that puts your money anywhere near the banks or pensions industry - they've shown what they are FTSE ? Oh yes, let's make lots of good noises about something that's lower than it was in the year 2000 However, I agree that recent BTL are probably screwed in the mid/long term. When rents drop (they will IMO, unless someone can show me good reasons for wage inflation) it will be older established BTL that lower their rents to fill voids, leaving newbies high and dry. A house I let for £800 pcm in 1991 now lets for £880 today - 10% rent growth in twenty years !So, let's say someone has £1000 per month savings, let's hear some valid suggestions from people here that could offer a retirement savings strategy? - I'm all ears.BTW - why is this thread in off-topic? http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/187004-do-you-blame-people-for-getting-into-buy-to-let/?p=909246291 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19 year mortgage 8itch Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 They (the govt and bankers) learnt their lesson in the last crash, mega cheap money awash,govt meddling,PPI,car scrappage,all worked its magic, I was getting 6.5% on my money, (str in Dec 2007) I then bought my own house (2012) and 3 BTL (2013),s all due to the above, my houses were all probate buys at 2002 prices as i put in really low offers and now worth (at the moment) £160k more than I payed. 2012-13 was the year to buy with cash they would snap your hand off. My BTL are keepers for at least 30years so I dont really care if they go up or down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverwhere Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Nice find! Original source here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 Bugger, bugger, bugger. Obviously would prefer to be posting but for reasons that are no longer entirely clear I have to honour a solemn promise to bake a cake and decorate it with the integral form of Gaus's law, a promise upon which I now need to urgently deliver. Bloody Osborne! If you lot have too much fun without me I will be furious! I'll be back during the baking phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverwhere Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Bugger, bugger, bugger. Obviously would prefer to be posting but for reasons that are no longer entirely clear I have to honour a solemn promise to bake a cake and decorate it with the integral form of Gaus's law, a promise upon which I now need to urgently deliver. Bloody Osborne! If you lot have too much fun without me I will be furious! I'll be back during the baking phase. Careful, that sounds like a recipe for burnt cake! Don't think of it as us having fun without you, think of it as us collating all of the best bits of the fun onto HPC for you to enjoy at your leisure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Canadian Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Bugger, bugger, bugger. Obviously would prefer to be posting but for reasons that are no longer entirely clear I have to honour a solemn promise to bake a cake and decorate it with the integral form of <a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauss"href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauss" s_law"="">If you lot have too much fun without me I will be furious! I'll be back during the baking phase. Those winter evenings must just fly by in physics land........ What sort of cake is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 The list at 9 July 2015 BTL BSers Milkshock Mark Alexander sleepwello'nights BTLers buckers Le Grande Fromage wotnocrash Self-appointed Witchfinder General's Fickle Finger of Suspicion Damocles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Canadian Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 The list at 9 July 2015 BTL BSers Milkshock Mark Alexander sleepwello'nights BTLers buckers Le Grande Fromage wotnocrash Self-appointed Witchfinder General's Fickle Finger of Suspicion Damocles would you be able to bake a hat shaped cake (a la Ashdown) for these chaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 Careful, that sounds like a recipe for burnt cake! Don't think of it as us having fun without you, think of it as us collating all of the best bits of the fun onto HPC for you to enjoy at your leisure I used to work in St Albans and there's a magic traffic free route (basically bridleways the whole way) back to the county town of Hertfordshire wherein I presently reside, and more importantly for our purposes here, wherein I resided at that time too, so Fridays during the summer I'd cycle to work with a pal also based in the same neck of the woods, who worked at the same school. There is a boozer a couple of miles from home so we'd stop, and I'd get some in, but then arrive back home between six and seven, full of sunshine and basically half to two-thirds cut. I lived alone at that time, you'll all be shocked to discover, and I went through a range of activities as things to do when it's still quite early and you're drunk but you're not planning to go back out into the world and get plastered. I tried cleaning but stubbed my toe so brutally whilst wielding a very underwhelming Vax (its inadequacy is largely behind the switch to the present German powerhouse) that housekeeping fell from favour, and I did try baking, but fell asleep and burnt it. In the end I settled on going out to the pub with Shakespeare, (not literally, he's dead, obviously). Reading a play you already know is probably the best option when sauced. You can just keep re-reading the same page and thinking how great it is. It's the literary equivalent of being eighteen and drunk with your mates and just repeatedly saying, "I bloody love you, man" Those winter evenings must just fly by in physics land........ What sort of cake is it? A surface integral is a thing of beauty forever. A good leftie cake for The Dude, natch. From The Grauniad, Dan Lepard's Cinnamon honey fruit cake. I've made it with brandy not tea. Whilst shambling around Sainsburys I was obviously failing to pull off the Terrifying Witchfinder General in a suitably intimidating fashion as I was approached by a store assistant offering help. I said "Direct me to your cheapest brandy" Realising that this could be misinterpreted I added, "I'm not an alcoholic, well I might be, but I need the brandy for a cake". Seven English Pounds. Half an hour into the baking now and it smells awesome, as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 would you be able to bake a hat shaped cake (a la Ashdown) for these chaps? Let them eat cake, you say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverwhere Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 In the end I settled on going out to the pub with Shakespeare, (not literally, he's dead, obviously). Reading a play you already know is probably the best option when sauced. You can just keep re-reading the same page and thinking how great it is. It's the literary equivalent of being eighteen and drunk with your mates and just repeatedly saying, "I bloody love you, man" I'm imagining your internal monologue at the time went something like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) I'm imagining your internal monologue at the time went something like Basically, yes. On the other hand - this: This cake is basically the opposite of BTL I made it There is no leverage in this cake (but there are 200 g of prunes, which I chopped) The cake is not a mechanism of extorting wealth The cake will not blow up in my stupid face George Osborne is not actively trying to destroy my cake The cake alludes a knowledge of mathematics which extends beyond the BTL syllogism, "Moar is moar" This cake cost me the lion's share of £10 but the downside is curtailed therein People I like will be happy because I made this cake In other news, renting is dead money, and only penniless morons would rent, allegedly, . Edited July 9, 2015 by bland unsight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverwhere Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Basically, yes. On the other hand - this: This cake is basically the opposite of BTL I made it There is no leverage in this cake (but there are 200 g of prunes, which I chopped) The cake is not a mechanism of extorting wealth The cake will not blow up in my stupid face George Osborne is not actively trying to destroy my cake The cake alludes a knowledge of mathematics which extends beyond the BTL syllogism, "Moar is moar" This cake cost me the lion's share of £10 but the downside is curtailed therein People I like will be happy because I made this cake In other news, renting is dead money, and only penniless morons would rent, allegedly, . I don't know, it looks pretty tasty, I'm sure he'd happily destroy a slice if he got the chance! In other news buy-to-let leverage is homicidal money, and only financially suicidal morons would buy-to-let, definitely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19 year mortgage 8itch Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Basically, yes. On the other hand - this: The cake will not blow up in my stupid face I wouldn't make statements like that if I had just made an I.S. cake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Canadian Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I wouldn't make statements like that if I had just made an I.S. cake. I does look like a very tasty cake though.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted July 10, 2015 Author Share Posted July 10, 2015 I wouldn't make statements like that if I had just made an I.S. cake. That is a great call! I'm going to draw the line at a doctoring the flag in question by replacing their cake with my cake, but only because I fear the wrath of the hpc mods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted July 10, 2015 Author Share Posted July 10, 2015 I does look like a very tasty cake though.... Well received by its consumers. I joked with the Head about potentially accidentally giving food poisoning the to whole Physics Department, but he reassured me that as it was Friday, they'd be over the worst by Monday. I guess that's why he's the Head, . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted July 10, 2015 Author Share Posted July 10, 2015 I have received a suggestion via PM that we crunch the numbers on the supposed investments of one of our bullshitters in light of the revision of the taxation treatment of mortgage interest when calculating taxable profits on rental property income. Trainee Witchfinders (sorry, union rules, only one Witchfinder General) will probably be able to guess which bullshitter as they are the only one who's bragged about their contractor's salary and been explicit about the rents, the prices paid and posted suggestively about the LTVs. I'm not sure. On the one hand, it might be useful for our fellow poster to know when exactly they reach the Unsight Point, but on the other hand, shouldn't we be charging for the service? Thoughts, please. I have no plans to buy in East Finchley, so I come to this with clean hands. If the poster in question has recovered from the shock of the budget announcement and can milk their tenants to come up with some cheese to pay our fee, I'd gladly see if things have soured for them or whether they should still be grinning like the cat that got the cream. Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverwhere Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Is BalancedBear a landlord? Welcome to the real business world...Interest rates, red tape, health and safety, all change all the time..It has been one of the biggest complaints and yet the flatness Government boasts about is never long lasting. BTL is a 25 year game...did you really expect it to remain the same as the day you started? http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/205534-tax-relief-on-buy-to-let-mortgage-interest/?p=1102754313 No, I never expect any politicians to keep their word, or make life simple for anyone. However if their stated goal is to make things business friendly, they need to stop messing. However it does not mean people should not complain about what the government does. http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/205534-tax-relief-on-buy-to-let-mortgage-interest/?p=1102754343 I can understand exactly what is happening, and the changes are going to have little impact upon me. They will however affect others and there will be unintended consequences which people on this forum generally don't care about, until it affects them too. If there is not much complaining about this change, then it will only be a matter of time before business expenses for the self employed will be taxed too, and anything else which is deemed to be unfair relative to PAYE. It is people like you can't see what is happening. Osbourne has not become some form of Robin Hood figure. He is only interested in helping big business and getting more out of small businesses who don't have the resources to fight. He is not interested in deleveraging, he is only interested in getting more and more people into debt and on the "housing ladder" so they can be controlled more. Look at all the stamp duty the government is missing out on by people renting and moving instead of buying and moving for starters. He wants people stuck in overpriced homes as much as any other UK politician does! http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/205534-tax-relief-on-buy-to-let-mortgage-interest/?p=1102754437 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venger Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Basically, yes. On the other hand - this: This cake is basically the opposite of BTL I made it There is no leverage in this cake (but there are 200 g of prunes, which I chopped) The cake is not a mechanism of extorting wealth The cake will not blow up in my stupid face George Osborne is not actively trying to destroy my cake The cake alludes a knowledge of mathematics which extends beyond the BTL syllogism, "Moar is moar" This cake cost me the lion's share of £10 but the downside is curtailed therein People I like will be happy because I made this cake In other news, renting is dead money, and only penniless morons would rent, allegedly, . Good looking cake - well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venger Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I have received a suggestion via PM that we crunch the numbers on the supposed investments of one of our bullshitters in light of the revision of the taxation treatment of mortgage interest when calculating taxable profits on rental property income. Trainee Witchfinders (sorry, union rules, only one Witchfinder General) will probably be able to guess which bullshitter as they are the only one who's bragged about their contractor's salary and been explicit about the rents, the prices paid and posted suggestively about the LTVs. I'm not sure. On the one hand, it might be useful for our fellow poster to know when exactly they reach the Unsight Point, but on the other hand, shouldn't we be charging for the service? Thoughts, please. I have no plans to buy in East Finchley, so I come to this with clean hands. If the poster in question has recovered from the shock of the budget announcement and can milk their tenants to come up with some cheese to pay our fee, I'd gladly see if things have soured for them or whether they should still be grinning like the cat that got the cream. Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, Milkshock, It was all about yield as I remember it - from a landlord living in the real world. We'll see. Got 50k off an ex-council flat (400k) at an 8% yield. Happy to buy at those prices as my strategy is to broadly ignore capital values and concentrate on yield. I think we can agree that rent is super expensive in Hackney. a joke that the issue is being raised in that the service charge is a mere drop in the ocean on this place. 2.7k rent - 700 PA service charge. there are no LA fees as I'm doing it myself. I have another rental property and I estimate maintenance costs to be 1k PA. block of flats so buildings insurance covered. You are free carry on seeing life as you wish it to be - not as it really is. I've been made redundant in my lifetime. At no point during that process did my employer care whether or not I had the means to pay my bills on a monthly basis as a result of their actions. That experience taught me a hard lesson about our value system as it actually is. The fact that the Tories have won a majority and UKIPs vote has soared tells me all I need to know about what goes on in the real world. My boomer parents live in Wimbledon and I can confirm that prices there are stratospheric. Given that you mention SW London and properties costing less than half of Wimbledon my guess is probably Mitcham or thereabouts? On the ground I'm seeing it already - yields returning to a normalised 7/8% - sellers being low balled with 75-100k lower than asking price offers - and capitulating. Rents remaining sky high and increasing - partly due to extremely tight lending criteria barring further oxygen being fed to a still (in some cases) deluded set of owners. Agreed. Couple this with the idiots in charge of this country handing over responsibility for housing the people to private landlords and we have my scenario of rising rents with static wages (unable to afford to buy, but can be squeezed for rent) plus MMR scuppering HPI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venger Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 It was all about yield as I remember it - from a landlord living in the real world. We'll see. Yield... how's that tax-relief + other relief changes going to bite? He expects HPC but that the winners will be other landlords, cartel-ing it - impression I get. Yield... sudden change with that, given The Budget, for many a landlord, it seems. Sorry quotes are in clumsy order. it is indeed your view. My own experience of interacting with people is that reducing the living room area and turning it into another bedroom is almost de riguer for renters in central-ish parts of London (this one is 3 minutes walk from Haggerston Station. Go and check the rental values in Islington and Hackney - eye-watering. I said that part of my narrative was not to see any decrease in rental demand or prices. HPC, however I can see as investors demand proper yields while the over-leveraged kiss good bye to their futures. Haggerston so not far wrong. Im not 100% convinced of price falls - I think probable. Rentals I view as upwards and onwards. As I said I see converting living rooms in bedrooms as almost standard now due to pressures. Apologies to those in here for buckling but just had my 400k offer on the ex council on Hackney/Islington borders accepted. Yield is 8% and I keep the current tenants. He wanted 475 to start with and it was on at 450 when I stepped in. Yes the price cuts are out there now as properties in London continue to pile up - months on the market in many cases - but I'm in it for yield and am anticipating further potential falls which I will gratefully accept once sellers get desperate. which they will. 25% deposit only - @8% yield I'm making approx 1500 pcm profit after mortgage and post service charge. Voids (never a problem for me in London tbh) should probably be factored in. I've got a further 200k spare and will not be disappointed to purchase a similar property for 350k in 6-12 months time. Buying for me is a hedge against falling prices as I do not in any way shape or form expect falling rents. Beyond the non-falling rental position that I hold, I agree anything can and probably will happen. A lot of amateurs will probably get blown away and rightfully so. He was selling because he wanted liquidate his asset? Ex council so I assume he bought it for a song on RTB? Why are you asking? The yield is very real and that's my priority. And if he was a home owner who had over leveraged by buying at bubble prices and now needs extra space for 2 kids and simply had to sell I would gladly punish him for his recklessness by low-balling him and forcing his hand. It has be to be accepted that the only people purchasing property now are the ultra-credit worthy who will exerpience the effects of any mjor decline in house prices, but will be unaffected as their LTV is so high. So, while I believe house prices can and maybe will go down steeply rents to my mind will not decline - Labours proposals to increase stability in the rented sector show me where their priorities lie - keep people renting and forget about buying a house. Should have said their LTV is so low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venger Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Not enough of the renters will be deemed credit worthy under MMR Yes I do call 75% LTV low - for them the rental income vs mortage repayments will outstrip any concerns over the actual property value. My basic narrative is a Labour government interested only keeping people in rented, low interest rates and a lack of credit worthy individuals to pick up properties in an HPC scenario. Hard to say - my own view is MMR is not actually about affordability but to stop the vast majority from buying property and let minority into a cartel. I think that will be the case whatever the price of a house going forward. Standards will simply increase in a falling house price scenario. As I said my narrative does not include an increased number of potential buyers due to falling prices. I believe the already high standards of underwriting will be tightened further. I agree, very possible. Again as I said, I'm hedging by yield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 Great stuff, Venger. I believe Milkshock's other hobbies include standing on a mountain top in a lightning storm with a five-foot copper phallus strapped to the top of his head pointed at the heavens, shouting at God to prove he's real. Events may actually prove that he (Milkshock, not God) was the Greatest of the the Greatest Fools in this bubble, quite an achievement given the depth of the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 Rightly or wrongly I'm also starting to think of this thread as a home for surreal humour relating to buy-to-let. With that in mind I have to publicly celebrate the work of this cat "All your Assetz are belong to HMRC." Source Seeing as amongst thread readers we have one declared non-nerd a word of explanation is available here, in perfect Engrish. I'm sure everybody knows about Assetz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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