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larrydavid18

Expecting Discount For My Relative In A 50% Equity Buyout.

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Hi there.

Sigh-Hear me out, i am not very astute on property so sorry if i dont give you all the correct info. and sorry if my knowledge is poor. But i would be very grateful for you advice.

Right, me and a friend bought a 3 bed house for £190000. We have a Mortgage exactly 50% each(we pay just over 500 quid a month on a 4.9% interest). It is a 5 year fixed mortage. We are Tennants in common. So far we have paid off around 9k each.

Anyhow, he wants to move out, as he getting married and wants to settle down. According to Zoopla the house will be around 210 000.

We had a chat i have have made it quite clear i love the property, and i do not want to leave. Thankfully my uncle has agreed to help me out and do a equity buyout of his half share.

Now we are currently getting a few valuations of the whole property and i want to be fair for everyone. I do not want my uncle to be paying too much as hes helping me out/family member, yet i want my friend to have a fair price, well as he is a good friend. I am acting as the "estate agent" to save both parties money.

Dilemma 1) There is still two years on our fixed rate which he is breaking, which means that the Mortgage company want a fee of £3700 for breaking that.

Dilemma 2) Valuing 50% of a house

So in conclusion what i am asking is am i being unfair??I feel that since my Uncle, nor me have broken the 5 year fixed, that then its reasonable that i or my uncle should not have to pay any of it. and if we do, is it reasonable to have it knocked off the valuation of the property?

Also, am i being harsh that half a property should not be the same as a whole property. Should a discount of 10/15% roughly be negotiated as i dont want to leave and if he went to the open market he would be lucky to get even that? Also HMRC value half properties with a 15% discount

http://www.boodlehatfield.com/the-firm/articles/equal-half-shares.aspx

So basically am i being a ***** and unfair to my mate. You guys are unbiased, and i dont want to come across as some morally repugnant person, so please let me know if i am being unfair with my reasons for reduced prices/not paying fixed rate penalty?

Pleaseeeeeeeee help.....

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You can only value it on what you would pay for it or similar properties have sold for. DO NOT value it on what other properties are ADVERTISED for on rightmove as they could be wildly over priced.

If there is a similar property in the street/area for sale you could put in an offer on the house too see how cheap you can get it, then use that for your valuation.

I would also expect the other party to pay the £3700 or wait for two years.

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Asute enough to seek advice from a random qweb site called house price crash....what do you think we are going to sy....Well done for making 20K, great idea for buing a house wioth a friend instead of waiting for the crash....

Be fair!!!

Grow up.

Life's not fair.

offer what you think the house is worth based on current valuations and where you think house prices are headed.

I know 2 people who got stung being stupid enough to buy a house with friends when the last BIG crash happened.

I'd offer 90K and work up from here,]

In reality your slave box is worth half what you paid anyway.

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You can only value it on what you would pay for it or similar properties have sold for. DO NOT value it on what other properties are ADVERTISED for on rightmove as they could be wildly over priced.

If there is a similar property in the street/area for sale you could put in an offer on the house too see how cheap you can get it, then use that for your valuation.

I would also expect the other party to pay the £3700 or wait for two years.

My problem is not the valuation, its the fact that my Uncle is buying effectively half a house. Thats the key issue here. Say you wanted to buy my friends half off him as you were a mate of his, and we got say two valuers and both said the house was around 200 000. You are getting half a house effectively in a tennancy in common with someone you dont know. Surely in pure business terms half a property does not have the same value as 100% of a property? Surely you would not offer 210 000 then simple divide by two???Or would you or am i talking cobblers?

I know for a fact that when HMRC do valuations of half a property they discount 15% discount because of that fact. But that is usually when someone dies.

Ive had advice from all sorts of friends, and like estate agents they have told me what purely from my perspective. "Just make sure he gets his deposit back" or "50% of a property is not worth full market value" etc etc. So are really harsh business people

Whilst i agree i want to be an astute business man, I do not want to leave a sour taste with my good friend. Thats the key thing here :(

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Asute enough to seek advice from a random qweb site called house price crash....what do you think we are going to sy....Well done for making 20K, great idea for buing a house wioth a friend instead of waiting for the crash....

Be fair!!!

Grow up.

Life's not fair.

offer what you think the house is worth based on current valuations and where you think house prices are headed.

I know 2 people who got stung being stupid enough to buy a house with friends when the last BIG crash happened.

I'd offer 90K and work up from here,]

In reality your slave box is worth half what you paid anyway.

Blimey ive rocked you. I was simply asking for Moral implications of business, and what is fair and what isnt. Ive been a member here for a while, but been inactive. I a not sure if you ar being sarcastic or not?

Cheers for the advice though

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Whilst i agree i want to be an astute business man, I do not want to leave a sour taste with my good friend. Thats the key thing here :(

Here's an old trick - Put the house up for sale, and invite offers. See what the best offer is then you can base the value on that. You uncle would be paying half of that valuation and your stake would be the other half.

Surely in pure business terms half a property does not have the same value as 100% of a property?

I can't see how you can pressure someone who has a 50% stake in into accepting 42.5%

Since you are tenants in common then you are both liable for the debt, so your friend could make things very difficult for you by simply stop paying their mortgage contributions which you would then be liable for, so I wouldn't push it too far.

I guess your overall aim is prevent your friend from withdrawing their equity/making a profit form the house.

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Here's an old trick - Put the house up for sale, and invite offers. See what the best offer is then you can base the value on that. You uncle would be paying half of that valuation and your stake would be the other half.

I can't see how you can pressure someone who has a 50% stake in into accepting 42.5%

Since you are tenants in common then you are both liable for the debt, so your friend could make things very difficult for you by simply stop paying their mortgage contributions which you would then be liable for, so I wouldn't push it too far.

I guess your overall aim is prevent your friend from withdrawing their equity/making a profit form the house.

Very good point, and by the want i do not want to pressure anyone. I am very confused at the moment morally and business wise what to do.

To be honest i would have never contemplated all this "astuteness" if it wasnt for certain advisors putting things in my head and making me paranoid. As i say i am still very good friends with him, and want 100 percent fairness. But also my Uncle is flesh and blood, helping me out, so i want 100 percent fairness his end

So my next would be, if the valuer does indeed mention about the 15% discount, would it be reasonable to say meet half way and say offer 5% discount of the property for the reasons you mentioned?

Many thanks for your replies by the way.

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Here's an old trick - Put the house up for sale, and invite offers. See what the best offer is then you can base the value on that. You uncle would be paying half of that valuation and your stake would be the other half.

I can't see how you can pressure someone who has a 50% stake in into accepting 42.5%

Since you are tenants in common then you are both liable for the debt, so your friend could make things very difficult for you by simply stop paying their mortgage contributions which you would then be liable for, so I wouldn't push it too far.

I guess your overall aim is prevent your friend from withdrawing their equity/making a profit form the house.

Thats the key, equity. Lets say the house is 210 000 and we agree on the that. We got the house 190 000 with sharing exactly equal a 19000 deposit.

So hes put in before we have even started 9.5k, we both paid of 8 k each, plus the house has gone up 20k. So if i am correct his aim would be get as much back of a 27.5k equity in the property. So you were my Uncle, what would you pay back in equity to him.

Please elaborate on your point mate.

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Is this your friend or just some guy you bought a house with? What is he planning to do with the money? Buy a house? Spend it on a wedding? If he is your best mate which I guess he must be if you bought a house with him (I really have no idea how this buying with a friend thing works) then treat him nice, give him what he feels is fair (what's the old EA saying 'you can't pay the wrong price, only pay it at the wrong time'), house prices always go up (it just a number) it the long term so you can't go wrong, can you! Also, buy him a leaving cake and some additional leaving presents, why are you being so tight, trying to save money for your Uncle and not helping your best mate out! My best mate gave me £5000 when I needed it, note; gave not lend, I and helped him out in return. That's what good friends do for one another. Spread the love, stop thinking in the greedy, short term way about money, what's goes around comes around. Karma. Peace man. B)

Edited by renting til I die

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Is this your friend or just some guy you bought a house with? What is he planning to do with the money? Buy a house? Spend it on a wedding? If he is your best mate which I guess he must be if you bought a house with him (I really have no idea how this buying with a friend thing works) then treat him nice, give him what he feels is fair (what's the old EA saying 'you can't pay the wrong price, only pay it at the wrong time'), house prices always go up (it just a number) it the long term so you can't go wrong, can you! Also, buy him a leaving cake and some additional leaving presents, why are you being so tight, trying to save money for your Uncle and not helping your best mate out! My best mate gave me £5000 when I needed it, note; gave not lend, I and helped him out in return. That's what good friends do for one another. Spread the love, stop thinking in the greedy, short term way about money, what's goes around comes around. Karma. Peace man. B)

Hey thanks for the reply. I am no way being tight, as i say i would have never considered these things until other people started giving me hardcore advice which kinda messed with my head. and as i say, i am also representing my uncles interest as well, not just my friends. Thats the reverse implied of all this. My uncles very close to me as well, and always looked out for me. He does not have to help me out remember. plus i am not sure what my friend will do, i am not sure hes ure yet. But surely that does not concern my uncle does it?

But yes i agree with you about the friends thing, you sound like a good man :)

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Hey thanks for the reply. I am no way being tight, as i say i would have never considered these things until other people started giving me hardcore advice which kinda messed with my head. and as i say, i am also representing my uncles interest as well, not just my friends. Thats the reverse implied of all this. My uncles very close to me as well, and always looked out for me. He does not have to help me out remember. plus i am not sure what my friend will do, i am not sure hes ure yet. But surely that does not concern my uncle does it?

But yes i agree with you about the friends thing, you sound like a good man :)

Once your friend knows the price he feels/thinks is fair then you tell your Uncle what it is and if he wants to pay it, he will, no biggie. Your friend doesn't have to sell and your Uncle doesn't have to buy. There is no moral dilemma for yourself.

The same goes for the exit fee. If your friend doesn't what to pay it (it is a pretty high fee on a mere £20k), he doesn't have to. He can just wait 2 years before he can sell his 50%!

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Once your friend knows the price he feels/thinks is fair then you tell your Uncle what it is and if he wants to pay it, he will, no biggie. Your friend doesn't have to sell and your Uncle doesn't have to buy. There is no moral dilemma for yourself.

The same goes for the exit fee. If your friend doesn't what to pay it (it is a pretty high fee on a mere £20k), he doesn't have to. He can just wait 2 years before he can sell his 50%!

of the whole house or of half a house. Lets say you are my uncle, we agree the house is worth 210 000(in the mean streets of birmingham ;) as a whole sale. We all mutally agree that the house is worth that and no complaints there. From there, what do you feel is a fair price for my uncle. and what do you feel is a fair price for my friend. is it a simple case of 210 000/2 boom, which imo seems top heavy for my friend. or is it 210 000/2 discount 15 % accordig to HMRC, which against i feel biased to my uncle and unfair on my friend. or it a simple case of my uncle clears whats owed in the mortgage the debates what my friends equity should be.

As i say i want this sorted as i want to keep the property, and i dont want any parties being ripped off. Its a weird situation to be honest as i want both parties happy..

By the way this is most helpful guys, and getting unbiased advice from you good people is much needed :)

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Hi,

A friend of mine did this with his ex. I understand he got a professional valuation and split it down the middle. I guess if you don't like the valuation you could get another one and take the average or negotiate between the two.

As your friend is buying out early, surely asking that he pays legal fees for your side of the transaction or break fees, but it would be damaging to your friendship if you then demanded (or even suggested) a discount as well. Surely 10-15% would wipe out his equity and if he's paying all the costs its no skin off your back.

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Hi,

A friend of mine did this with his ex. I understand he got a professional valuation and split it down the middle. I guess if you don't like the valuation you could get another one and take the average or negotiate between the two.

As your friend is buying out early, surely asking that he pays legal fees for your side of the transaction or break fees, but it would be damaging to your friendship if you then demanded (or even suggested) a discount as well. Surely 10-15% would wipe out his equity and if he's paying all the costs its no skin off your back.

Lets takes the fees thingy a side for one minute. So you think take the agreed price/2 and boom done? As i say ive agreed that 15% is extremely high, would say a 5% discount reasonable. Would you if you were my uncle feel that half a house is worth exactly the same as the market value we have agreed on.

I think pure business terms here, i honestly am not trying to be a ***** about things. For example if i bought a new tv, opened the wrapping, realised i didnt want it then decided t sell it to you 1 minute later, then surely you would want 100 percent value price, as its second hand. So you would want a reduction in price right?

If you ran a restaurant on the monday, got a Michelin star on the Tuesday, the chances are you would raise the price because of demand and rep of the restaurant.

The point i am making is, yes, its no skin off my back per-say , but it does effect my mortgage. Also, more importantly, it effect my uncle whos helping me out and is also a very close friend. So i want both parties happy, and i agree, wiping out his equity is not fair, and i don't want that. But you have to remember my uncle is effectively coming in and prepared/will buy half the house.

So lets say bobbo you are a good friend of mine from Birmingham way(sorry about that), and you have never met my friend in my life. You have just won the national lottery, you know 5 balls and the bonus and now have 500 000 lying around. So you are doing well but not a millionaire. You decide to help me out as you are a good pal of mine, and its an investment as well. You decide to buy my friend half out. You have never met my friend before and have no ties with him. You are buying half a house. Would you honestly pay 100 percent market value on half of a house. That is the simple question i am asking everyone.

In conclusion, to my question, its no skin off my back, but surely it would be skin off your back since you are only owning half a house?Do you catch my drift?

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My conclusion is there is no good answer.

Both parties will want a good deal, so I suggest that they both meet (without you present) and discuss it once a value has been agreed.

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My conclusion is there is no good answer.

Both parties will want a good deal, so I suggest that they both meet (without you present) and discuss it once a value has been agreed.

True. I think that sounds best. It really is weird situation to be in, as there's no real protocol for this scenario. The scenario ive read up on are couples breaking up, being tenancy in common, and then one of the partners buys out the other half. That seems simpler as i guess the person thats doing the buy out is getting the full share of the property(do we ever truly own the property ;) ), job done. But this is more complicated imo as we are dealing with equal shares. Very messy.

Any other advice would be great, remember, nothing has been negotiated as yet, and at the moment we are getting in 3 separate valuers. So we not even agreed on the value for the house.

So if you feel that some of the stuff i have come out with is pure crap, be honest. As i say, what's great about you guys is none of you have any vested interest in any party. So hearing what you lot are saying is worth more advice than some close friends in some way as its balls to the wall honesty. :)

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If I was happy with the valuation then yes, I would buy 100% of half a house. I'm helping you as a friend, thats it, and I would not be expecting a similar trick to be played on me when I try and sell my stake, nor, should you progress in your career or also win lotto, and want to buy me out at a later date would I be expecting a premium from you to compensate me for whatever.

Surely if you didn't have a helpful uncle or friend and your friend said he wanted out. Then you would have to sell and settle up, either now or later once the mortgage term has completed. If you sell the house then surely you would both be wanting 50% of whatever you achieve in the market. You would have to bear half the costs and that would be that.

If you did apply a discount then you can't expect him to pay fees as well unless you anticipate declaring them to HMRC. If you will be materially worse off because of your mortgage or other quantifiable costs occur then you need to inform your friend of the exact or likely cost and ask that he compensate you - don't fudge it. Once he is aware of the costs then he might change his mind. Assuming you go ahead, you will need to keep miticuolous records such as invoices and proof of payment as you are talking about relativley large sums of money to an individual.

In short, if I was your friend and you told me you were going to sting me for minimum £5k plus fees which sound like they are going to be £5k again I'd not sell, move out, and rent my room out to whoever would take it. Surely you are the one who is winning here already.

Don't even try and fleece your friend but take this as a lesson and ensure you have planned an exit strategy with your uncle for how you would handle the situation with him when it comes up again (and it will).

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You say you want to stay in the house so it is reasonable that you pay for that option.

From a non-partisan perspective I dont understand why you dont simply both agree on what the house is likely to sell at on the open market and that becomes the valuation.

If it were me Id split the early repayment fee 50:50 also. You both agreed to enter into a 5 yr fix knowing that carried a risk if either of you had to sell for whatever reason. Life happens etc.

I dont understand why you want to screw your mate out of £3700 or whatever this 10/15% hmrc discount might be. You are not selling 50% on the open market you have a buyer, your uncle.

If you dont want to play fair just sell the house and find another one with your uncle.

Edited by R K

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If I was happy with the valuation then yes, I would buy 100% of half a house. I'm helping you as a friend, thats it, and I would not be expecting a similar trick to be played on me when I try and sell my stake, nor, should you progress in your career or also win lotto, and want to buy me out at a later date would I be expecting a premium from you to compensate me for whatever.

Surely if you didn't have a helpful uncle or friend and your friend said he wanted out. Then you would have to sell and settle up, either now or later once the mortgage term has completed. If you sell the house then surely you would both be wanting 50% of whatever you achieve in the market. You would have to bear half the costs and that would be that.

If you did apply a discount then you can't expect him to pay fees as well unless you anticipate declaring them to HMRC. If you will be materially worse off because of your mortgage or other quantifiable costs occur then you need to inform your friend of the exact or likely cost and ask that he compensate you - don't fudge it. Once he is aware of the costs then he might change his mind. Assuming you go ahead, you will need to keep miticuolous records such as invoices and proof of payment as you are talking about relativley large sums of money to an individual.

In short, if I was your friend and you told me you were going to sting me for minimum £5k plus fees which sound like they are going to be £5k again I'd not sell, move out, and rent my room out to whoever would take it. Surely you are the one who is winning here already.

Don't even try and fleece your friend but take this as a lesson and ensure you have planned an exit strategy with your uncle for how you would handle the situation with him when it comes up again (and it will).

Excellent points. I think you are right mate. I think this sounds best. We are getting proper valuations after all and not estate agent "what you want to hear valuations" stuff.

I guess a deal will come through and hopefully all will be sorted. But if worst comes to worst reading your guys sound advice i think ill have to shut up shop and put the house on the market for both of us if a deal cant be reached. Hopefully that will be worse case scenario, but hey, life's not perfect. :(

Again many thanks for you guys honest advice. As i stress, we are in embryo stages of getting it priced up and its nice hearing from a unbiased opinions. So appreciate the time and trouble :)

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You say you want to stay in the house so it is reasonable that you pay for that option.

From a non-partisan perspective I dont understand why you dont simply both aree on what the house is likely to sell at on the open market and that becomes the valuation.

If it were me Id split the early repayment fee 50:50 also. You both areed to enter into a 5 yr fix knowin that carried a risk if either of you had to sell for whatever reason. Life happens etc.

I dont understand why you want to screw your mate out of £3700 or whatever this 10/15% hmrc discount might be. You are not selling 50% on the open market you have a buyer, your uncle.

If you dont want to play fair just sell the house and find another one with your uncle.

Can i just state, i dont want to screw anyone of anything. I didnt even know of this HMRC shite, until a number of property savy friends came out with all this, "discout this and discount that," and "Open martket value this, and its not worth the same as that" etc. And as i say, i dont want my Uncle being "screwed over as well" as you put it. but honestly it did not even cross my mind. originally i was innocent and thought value house then 50/50 split. It wasnt until a number of different people in my life played devils advocate and started showing some hard nosed side of things in pub discussions etc.

If i really wanted to "screw" people over i would not even be asking for advice on here from random strangers on a forum. i would simply go ahead and "screw him over" not bat an eyelid and not even consider you guys advice.

In regards to the breaking fee, i humbly disagree on that. Thats like me and you living together in a rented property, you going out getting dumped by your misses, then coming home and deliberately burning down the kitchen in a drunken rage. Then expect me and the other tennants to foot the bill even though you did the vandalism.(by the way i am not for one minute accusing you are a vandal, it was just an extrme analogy ;) )

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Lets takes the fees thingy a side for one minute. So you think take the agreed price/2 and boom done? As i say ive agreed that 15% is extremely high, would say a 5% discount reasonable. Would you if you were my uncle feel that half a house is worth exactly the same as the market value we have agreed on.

I think pure business terms here, i honestly am not trying to be a ***** about things. For example if i bought a new tv, opened the wrapping, realised i didnt want it then decided t sell it to you 1 minute later, then surely you would want 100 percent value price, as its second hand. So you would want a reduction in price right?

If you ran a restaurant on the monday, got a Michelin star on the Tuesday, the chances are you would raise the price because of demand and rep of the restaurant.

The point i am making is, yes, its no skin off my back per-say , but it does effect my mortgage. Also, more importantly, it effect my uncle whos helping me out and is also a very close friend. So i want both parties happy, and i agree, wiping out his equity is not fair, and i don't want that. But you have to remember my uncle is effectively coming in and prepared/will buy half the house.

So lets say bobbo you are a good friend of mine from Birmingham way(sorry about that), and you have never met my friend in my life. You have just won the national lottery, you know 5 balls and the bonus and now have 500 000 lying around. So you are doing well but not a millionaire. You decide to help me out as you are a good pal of mine, and its an investment as well. You decide to buy my friend half out. You have never met my friend before and have no ties with him. You are buying half a house. Would you honestly pay 100 percent market value on half of a house. That is the simple question i am asking everyone.

In conclusion, to my question, its no skin off my back, but surely it would be skin off your back since you are only owning half a house?Do you catch my drift?

Haha, doesn't that make all houses (apart from new builds) 2nd hand! I guess you bought, errrr, at a discount. :P

Obviously buying and selling houses doesn't work in the same way as buying a second-hand TV. If I was your friend I would decide a fair minded price (with you) and ask your uncle if he wanted it, otherwise I would just wait and sell on the open market when you decided you had had enough of living there.

Plus, what is a discount on a house? If he sells and price goes up over the next 6 months, was that a discount? Alternatively, if he sells and prices goes down over the next 6 months did he rip your Uncle off? Can your Uncle buy 50% of any house? No, I didn't think so, so it sounds like your Uncle is just being an opportunist and sees a chance to get a bargain (houses seem to make people greedy), in an asset that he believes will hold its value and possibly go up, not to help you or your friend out. If this is the case and your Uncle is an ulber bull, perhaps he shouldn't be quibbling about a few grand here or there, as he'll be making 10% on his money, every year from here on in!

I understand for yourself this really is irrelevant. You just want to stay in your home and keep 2 people you love happy! Follow Wurzel's advice, sit down have a chat about it and keep it simply. Once people talk about discount this and discount that you know they are up to no good. It is no coincidence that financial products are made so complicated! :P

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Haha, doesn't that make all houses (apart from new builds) 2nd hand! I guess you bought, errrr, at a discount. :P

Obviously buying and selling houses doesn't work in the same way as buying a second-hand TV. If I was your friend I would decide a fair minded price (with you) and ask your uncle if he wanted it, otherwise I would just wait and sell on the open market when you decided you had had enough of living there.

Plus, what is a discount on a house? If he sells and price goes up over the next 6 months, was that a discount? Alternatively, if he sells and prices goes down over the next 6 months did he rip your Uncle off? Can your Uncle buy 50% of any house? No, I didn't think so, so it sounds like your Uncle is just being an opportunist and sees a chance to get a bargain (houses seem to make people greedy), in an asset that he believes will hold its value and possibly go up, not to help you or your friend out. If this is the case and your Uncle is an ulber bull, perhaps he shouldn't be quibbling about a few grand here or there, as he'll be making 10% on his money, every year from here on in!

I understand for yourself this really is irrelevant. You just want to stay in your home and keep 2 people you love happy! Follow Wurzel's advice, sit down have a chat about it and keep it simply. Once people talk about discount this and discount that you know they are up to no good. It is no coincidence that financial products are made so complicated! :P

I agree, spoke to my uncle and he happy seems as long as the valuation is all good, hes happy to split down the middle. So its just a question of agreeing on the overall price, divide by 2 and be done with it. As i mentioned before i know some Hard-nosed bastards that made me a bit paranoid that we were getting ripped off or something like that. At least with you guys you have reassured me that we are not.

Whats your take on break fee if you were in my shoes mate?

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I agree, spoke to my uncle and he happy seems as long as the valuation is all good, hes happy to split down the middle. So its just a question of agreeing on the overall price, divide by 2 and be done with it. As i mentioned before i know some Hard-nosed bastards that made me a bit paranoid that we were getting ripped off or something like that. At least with you guys you have reassured me that we are not.

Whats your take on break fee if you were in my shoes mate?

As I said, sit down, agree on the overall price. Build up a list of all the fees, etc. Split 50/50. Everyone is hopefully happy.

Don't listen to all those greedy hard nosed bastards. They are the reason the house market is such a nightmare!

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