65243 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 The analogy with hotels and restaurants doesn't really work. A tenancy is a very different sort of legal relationship from a contract for services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erat_forte Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 When I rent a hotel room or car, cleaning is part of the service offered. If I rented a house and a weekly cleaner came in as part of the deal, then I would agree with you. Normally when you rent a house, keeping it clean is your responsibility though. So why does this not apply to any other hiring of space that occurs then ?'As you found it' doesn't apply to hire cars, business premises, hotel room's, skip hire, u store premises - or in fact ANYTHING I can think of that involves hiring a space to use.Can anyone think of anything ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jemmy Button Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Landlords = Scum of the earth. The less contact I have with these arrogant wa*kers, the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 Washing up your plates after eating in a restaurant. Even washing your pint glass before you leave the pub! The more I think about it the more ridiculous the cleaning request seems! I think you have made a good point. Just as long as everything is in one piece you should get your deposit back! I agree. Seems others don't and see renting a place as different from these examples. I don't see how. You pay for a service - not to clean up after yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 The analogy with hotels and restaurants doesn't really work. A tenancy is a very different sort of legal relationship from a contract for services. But why should it be ? That is my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 When I rent a hotel room or car, cleaning is part of the service offered. If I rented a house and a weekly cleaner came in as part of the deal, then I would agree with you. Normally when you rent a house, keeping it clean is your responsibility though. So when you rent a car someone comes along and cleans it every day ? Fantastic !! What's the name of this company as I fancy using them You get a car in tip top condition - you pay for its usage for a week - on return its checked for basic condition - if that's fine - you say cheerio and its fired onto THEIR valet team to get it in shape for the next customer. For a hire car cleaning IS NOT part of the service offered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fully Detached Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 So when you rent a car someone comes along and cleans it every day ? Fantastic !! What's the name of this company as I fancy using them You get a car in tip top condition - you pay for its usage for a week - on return its checked for basic condition - if that's fine - you say cheerio and its fired onto THEIR valet team to get it in shape for the next customer. For a hire car cleaning IS NOT part of the service offered. Completely agree. I suspect if you returned a hire car with dog muck ground into the footwell carpets, then there might be a cost incurred in correcting that, same as there would if you puked all over a hotel room mattress. But as long as the car / room / house is returned in a decent clean and tidy state, then any additional cleaning the landlord wants should be a cost incurred by him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 Completely agree. I suspect if you returned a hire car with dog muck ground into the footwell carpets, then there might be a cost incurred in correcting that, same as there would if you puked all over a hotel room mattress. But as long as the car / room / house is returned in a decent clean and tidy state, then any additional cleaning the landlord wants should be a cost incurred by him. Exactly as I see it. I know people can leave flats in a total state. I know it can be a two way street for tenants and landlords. None of this alters my viewpoint at a basic level however. You shouldn't have to leave a rented property in the SAME state as when you got it - in terms of cleanliness. You are basically being asked to do the landlords job for them IMO. In a reasonable condition with all your items removed and all the landlords items accounted for - including acceptable wear and tear for the period of time involved ? This is fair and perfectly acceptable to both sides IMO. If I were a landlord of course I would love if my tenants did an amazing clean up for me. I wouldn't expect it however and wouldn't think it was fair. How does it happen in other countries ? I have rented abroad in a few places but cannot remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 (edited) Remove all your personal stuff. Throw a massive "trash my place because my landlord is a dick" party and charge £10 entry. Aim to get 100 people armed with spray cans, sledge hammers, and baseball bats to turn up and let them go for it. Edited May 14, 2015 by byron78 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 You can leave it as you found it...check the inventory, it should feature the cleanliness of items at the start. You are required to return the property in the state you found it, barring on the way agreements, less fair wear and tear. Anything else is an unfair contract term. requiring professional cleaning is, I beleive outlawed as an unfair term. The issue here is being reasonable....so photos of the time you moved in would help, and photos as you leave would help. As for business premises, there is a term usually built in called dilapidations....which means return as found in lay terms. If you've been in for 5+ years then wear + tear does not really apply. By that length of time, it is expected that the fixture + fittings are worthless/written down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shindigger Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 In 2008, I left a house in New Southgate London N11, cleaner than i found it, and i mean, much cleaner. The shitbag letting agents still whacked me at the end. I asked for an invoice to prove the work was done and it was something the guys sister had clearly knocked up in Word. They never went near the place. Its a scam from start to finish. The agent was in Whetstone High Road and they nearly had a ******ing brick through their window. If i were you i would accept now that you will be humped and dont even lift a finger to clean it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shindigger Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 The reason for asking you to do this is so your deposit can be stolen. Whatever you do the landlord will say that it is filthy. It is unreasonable to expect the house to be any cleaner than it was when you moved in. You don't need photos to prove its condition - the onus of any proof is on the landlord. Was a detailed inventory carried out at the start of the tenancy describing the level of cleanliness? Leave the place clean and then dispute any deduction from your deposit with the deposit protection scheme. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porca misèria Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Remove the bodies. Make up your own mind what to do with the weapons. And other evidence, like rubber gloves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkshock Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 The fact that the OP compares a rented house/flat to a hotel or a hire car speaks volumes. Clearly renting a property brings far more responsibilities to the tenant than if they were staying in a hotel - not least the relative cost to the tenant - far lower than staying in a hotel of the equivalent size/location. In addition the fact that the tenant is generally expected to pay all bills and council taxes also gives an indication that the responsibility towards the property is much higher than a hotel or hire car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shindigger Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Landlords = Scum of the earth. The less contact I have with these arrogant wa*kers, the better. While that might be true in many cases, this problem is more an agent thing in my view. I doubt the landlord even knows this is going on in some cases. Especially if abroad. Letting Agents are without doubt the dodgiest filth i have ever encountered. I worked for one for 18 months in central London. So i've heard first hand the ruses that get dreamt up. The best being how to withhold holding deposits when more than 1 tenant wants a place. The guy i worked for ( a partner in the business) would sit there inventing scenarios to argue that the tenant had pulled out of the deal. They would actually budget these deposit grabs in to their expected yield on a place. Only job i've ever been sacked from, because i basically couldn't lie often enough. Absolute scum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 The deposit is 'only' £250 so I am tempted to just do the very very very most basic and leave it at that. Thanks for the advice. The Party idea sounds fun - but I dont want to be a dick just to even things up. 18 hours of expected cleaning. For a flat. Thats actually beyond a joke. They kindly provide a list of cleaner services that they 'recommend'. Guaranteed there is some 'bonus' scheme between the them. Its a sham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 The fact that the OP compares a rented house/flat to a hotel or a hire car speaks volumes. Clearly renting a property brings far more responsibilities to the tenant than if they were staying in a hotel - not least the relative cost to the tenant - far lower than staying in a hotel of the equivalent size/location. In addition the fact that the tenant is generally expected to pay all bills and council taxes also gives an indication that the responsibility towards the property is much higher than a hotel or hire car. Whats the difference ? So its to do with the relative cost to the tenant is it ? By your logic anyone staying in a bog standard budget motel should be expected to provide a basic cleaning service as well should they ? But as you move up the level of quality of hotel this drops does it ? Sorry - but renting a flat is paying for a service and the use of a space for an agreed period of time. Yes the agreements and how things work out etc.. may be different to a hotel or a car. But in principle - at a high level - its exactly the same. Lets look at the basic numbers. I have paid over £14,000 for the basic service of having a small flat to live in for 2 years. Thats it. Responsibility to the property higher than a hotel ? Yes I would agree. To the point where I have to clean the entire place over 18 hours to the level of a professional cleaning company rewarded and paid on their results ? Get a ******ing grip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Agreed, I've questioned it many times. The response is always, "Well the agent draws up the contract, not me." The agent in this case is one I have quoted here before, who doesn't understand the Haliwide press releases and can't work out the difference between the monthly and annual figures. One of the saddest aspects to this never ending HPI is that it allows people like this not just to stay in business, but also to very directly affect other people's lives. I might be in a minority of one but I cannot see what is wrong with agents apporach. It's much better that they be upfront about what is expected than quibble after you hand the flat back and take the cost of professional cleaning (plus agents admin costs and mark up) off your deposit. Chances are the last tenants had to jump through the same hoop, so unless you can prove otherwise it will be assumed that the flat had been cleaned to a professional standard before you moved in. BTW how have you managed to live on this forum and not know that in the UK you are expected to leave the place in the same state as you found it (I know Germany has a different system but you must have come across similar threads many times). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkshock Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Whats the difference ? So its to do with the relative cost to the tenant is it ? By your logic anyone staying in a bog standard budget motel should be expected to provide a basic cleaning service as well should they ? But as you move up the level of quality of hotel this drops does it ? Sorry - but renting a flat is paying for a service and the use of a space for an agreed period of time. Yes the agreements and how things work out etc.. may be different to a hotel or a car. But in principle - at a high level - its exactly the same. Lets look at the basic numbers. I have paid over £14,000 for the basic service of having a small flat to live in for 2 years. Thats it. Responsibility to the property higher than a hotel ? Yes I would agree. To the point where I have to clean the entire place over 18 hours to the level of a professional cleaning company rewarded and paid on their results ? Get a ******ing grip. In my area a bog standard budget motel (£85 per night) is still double what I would expect to be charging a tenant on a nightly basis in a 2 bed flat across the road. I notice you've ignored the council tax/bills issue - relevant because to me it indicates that there is an implication of higher responsibility to the tenant and also that you are getting involved in a transaction that does not make you purely the recipient of a service provision. Its already been mentioned here that in commercial property the tenant is responsible for all upkeep including any repairs that may be effected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 I might be in a minority of one but I cannot see what is wrong with agents apporach. It's much better that they be upfront about what is expected than quibble after you hand the flat back and take the cost of professional cleaning (plus agents admin costs and mark up) off your deposit. Chances are the last tenants had to jump through the same hoop, so unless you can prove otherwise it will be assumed that the flat had been cleaned to a professional standard before you moved in. BTW how have you managed to live on this forum and not know that in the UK you are expected to leave the place in the same state as you found it (I know Germany has a different system but you must have come across similar threads many times). I know what the situation is - I just don't think its right. I also didn't realise they send you a three page document written by someone with extreme OCD telling you exactly how and where to clean - and also to inform you that this should take about 18 hours out of your life. I also didn't realise they sent you a handy wee link to their pals who they 'recommend' for the cleaning services - which is clearly just a sham. In conclusion - I knew it was a bit of a sham before - but I didnt quite realise how much of a total piss take the entire thing was until now. Its literally theft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 In my area a bog standard budget motel (£85 per night) is still double what I would expect to be charging a tenant on a nightly basis in a 2 bed flat across the road. I notice you've ignored the council tax/bills issue - relevant because to me it indicates that there is an implication of higher responsibility to the tenant and also that you are getting involved in a transaction that does not make you purely the recipient of a service provision. Its already been mentioned here that in commercial property the tenant is responsible for all upkeep including any repairs that may be effected. A bog standard budget motel £85 ? Seems rather high to me. Anyway that's not the point. Its the principle. I haven't ignored the bills issue - I just don't think its particularly relevant. I stated I agree these sort of arrangements are different from a hotel or whatever. I still don't think EITHER should have you spending 18 HOURS to clean prior to 'checking out'. Do you ? As for commercial property - I realise this is different in terms of repairs and maintenance. However scrubbing down with bleach prior to leaving the premises ? I imagine it depends on the type of commercial property ? Where I work just now they rent offices. Recently reduced from two large ones down to one. They removed their stuff from the other office and that was that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseraider Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Could be worse - apparently in Germany when you move out of a rental you have to take your fitted kitchen with you! I always get a cleaning company to do a "end of tenancy clean" -- it's not cheap, but it saves you the hassle, and also means you can have an invoice to wave at the tenancy dispute resolution people if it comes to it. You could even get the agent to recommend a cleaning company to you, to avoid arguments about the "professionalism" of the firm. If you do that I would suggest checking the quote you get to make sure it's roughly on a level with what you could get elsewhere (i.e. doesn't have a layer of agent-fat cooked into it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I agree. Seems others don't and see renting a place as different from these examples. I don't see how. You pay for a service - not to clean up after yourself. so, are you saying that you should never clean the place during your tenure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellsbells Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 We rent out our annex from time to time and have had to recently change letting agent. Anyway they have just found us a new tenant and presented us with their standard contract to sign. To say it is draconian is an understatement, I have scored through loads of clauses as I don't think that they are reasonable expectations to place on a tenant, and not the sort of things I would have been prepared to do when I was renting. I will just tell the tenant that they can safely ignore many of the specifics in it, I really don't want the curtains dry cleaned,the carpets fumigated or the septic tank emptied when they move out. Over the years we have had 5 sets of tenants and only ever deducted £80 from the deposit of the very last last one to pay for necessary repairs to damage caused by one of their guests in the last week of the tenancy. I expect to have to redecorate at least some of the rooms between every tenant. A roller, a paintbrush and a big pot of magnolia is not expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 A bog standard budget motel £85 ? Seems rather high to me. Anyway that's not the point. Its the principle. I haven't ignored the bills issue - I just don't think its particularly relevant. I stated I agree these sort of arrangements are different from a hotel or whatever. I still don't think EITHER should have you spending 18 HOURS to clean prior to 'checking out'. Do you ? As for commercial property - I realise this is different in terms of repairs and maintenance. However scrubbing down with bleach prior to leaving the premises ? I imagine it depends on the type of commercial property ? Where I work just now they rent offices. Recently reduced from two large ones down to one. They removed their stuff from the other office and that was that. and he cant request you spend 18 hours on it...but he can expect the place back as you found it, less wear and tear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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