Citi Economist Says It Might Be Time To Abolish Cash

[Stateless]

Just issue new designs every year a force an exchange of old for new. With a fee imbedded. Ie 2 year notes worthless. Lifespan of notes 9 months?

I don't like bit coin, and the rest, if this was good for us, it would be illegal already. It's a trick. Making you think giving up cash is a good deal. They would a love digital currency to really take root. Then just take it over.

[billybong]

Just issue new designs every year a force an exchange of old for new. With a fee imbedded. Ie 2 year notes worthless. Lifespan of notes 9 months?

I don't like bit coin, and the rest, if this was good for us, it would be illegal already. It's a trick. Making you think giving up cash is a good deal. They would a love digital currency to really take root. Then just take it over.

+1

My bold and italics.

Exactly. Let someone else sort out the problems then take it over. In time it'll be used to increase their control which is what it's all about.

[thecrashingisles]

The world is ready for a 3rd party silver or gold currency provider. A group of businesses should just go for it and say they'll take precious metals at the till.

They should call it the Ratner.

[evetsm]

Just issue new designs every year a force an exchange of old for new. With a fee imbedded. Ie 2 year notes worthless. Lifespan of notes 9 months?

I don't like bit coin, and the rest, if this was good for us, it would be illegal already. It's a trick. Making you think giving up cash is a good deal. They would a love digital currency to really take root. Then just take it over.

that will solve nothing.

how much will they issue to themselves ?

more than they do already?

[winkie]

...if noticed new replacement debt cards now contactless cards,cards for travel on trains and busses, there are limits to cash withdrawls, lots of questions asked....as mentioned note designs are being changed on a fairly regular basis........how long before shops will refuse to take cash because too costly for them to handle?

[goldbug9999]

I am making a point of using cash more and more, even giving supermarkets loads of 1p`s and 2p`s when paying for milk etc. just because I am sick of the big banks having their shifty paws into every transaction we make.

If people want to fight back and stress the banking system all they have to do is maximise the amount of cash in circulation e.g. as soon as you get paid, draw all the money you normally use for incidental spending for the month out as cash.

[stormymonday_2011]

Ain't going to happen because cash is a store of value that governments and central banks can control. If you get rid of it people will just opt for an alternative that the banks and governments may not control. Precious metals are the obvious alternative but there are many others.

Edited April 25, 2015 by stormymonday_2011

[R K]

Forget Buiter, gold, bitcoin and all that sh1t.

They'll simply raise the inflation target.

4% cpi target. 0% real equilibrium rate.

Bingo bongo. Job done.

Edited April 25, 2015 by R K

[longgone]

Don't do it

I have to 5 mins extra already because some twit living above his means buys a pint with credit card.

[Renewed Investor]

They want to push everyone onto the Cryptos so all transactions can be tracked. The problem with the Cryptos is the blockchain, the blockchains will get to the size where they cannot be downloaded on retail hard drives and so the blockchain will have to be centralized by someone with the storage and processing power.

[skrillex]

Bitcoin is already functioning as online cash. Too late to put that genie back in the bottle

[evetsm]

They want to push everyone onto the Cryptos so all transactions can be tracked. The problem with the Cryptos is the blockchain, the blockchains will get to the size where they cannot be downloaded on retail hard drives and so the blockchain will have to be centralized by someone with the storage and processing power.

prune the blockchain, archive history etc etc

there are many options built into the protocol

Edited April 26, 2015 by evetsm

[R K]

Not really though is it. There are too many holes to plug.

The major one is not gold and bitcoin but perhaps the Euro, the Dollar etc. If they try and steal people's cash with inflation, the exchange rate should fall over time. In fact the same with any other alternative asset.

Having said that the lower bound is not just to do with negative rates but why they have negative rates and that is for a prolonged period of deflation when cash rises in value and all alternatives fall.

I would expect any serious bout of deflation to be global if it arises, in which case they would have to plug all the holes in all the world's currencies simultaneously - not technically easy nor popular especially in very heavy cash usage countries like Germany.

However, one cannot help but think that the money laundering strictures on all of us in the UK seem to be getting tighter and tighter to drive out cash usage amongst ordinary customers.

It would be a shared move obviously.

US, UK and ECB have slightly different central bank mandates and targets but they're broadly targetting 2% inflation (US dual mandata, ECB close to but below, BoE symmetrical target etc)

So it has nothing to do with relative currency movements at all.

Germany don't have their own currency - They have to abide by ECB policy or leave the EZ of course.

Bitcoin and gold are irrelevant obviously.

Nobody is "stealing" anything. Wages will adjust, nominal risk free rates will rise and so on across the curve and asset classes.

It's actually very straightforward.

Edited April 26, 2015 by R K

[slawek]

Not really though is it. There are too many holes to plug.

The major one is not gold and bitcoin but perhaps the Euro, the Dollar etc. If they try and steal people's cash with inflation, the exchange rate should fall over time. In fact the same with any other alternative asset.

Having said that the lower bound is not just to do with negative rates but why they have negative rates and that is for a prolonged period of deflation when cash rises in value and all alternatives fall.

I would expect any serious bout of deflation to be global if it arises, in which case they would have to plug all the holes in all the world's currencies simultaneously - not technically easy nor popular especially in very heavy cash usage countries like Germany.

However, one cannot help but think that the money laundering strictures on all of us in the UK seem to be getting tighter and tighter to drive out cash usage amongst ordinary customers.

The countries which don't abolish cash will be forced to do this. Their currencies will rise and they will effectively import deflation from the rest of the world if they don't get of rid of cash. This will leaves only not national currencies as potential cash replacement.

It looks like SNB has already made some first steps

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-25/war-cash-migrates-switzerland

[evetsm]

It would be a shared move obviously.

US, UK and ECB have slightly different central bank mandates and targets but they're broadly targetting 2% inflation (US dual mandata, ECB close to but below, BoE symmetrical target etc)

So it has nothing to do with relative currency movements at all.

Germany don't have their own currency - They have to abide by ECB policy or leave the EZ of course.

Bitcoin and gold are irrelevant obviously.

Nobody is "stealing" anything. Wages will adjust, nominal risk free rates will rise and so on across the curve and asset classes.

It's actually very straightforward.

a glib dismissal of gold from a Keynesian who has proven by his own words NOT to understand gold.

and yes, inflation is theft of savings

[zugzwang]

It would be a shared move obviously.

US, UK and ECB have slightly different central bank mandates and targets but they're broadly targetting 2% inflation (US dual mandata, ECB close to but below, BoE symmetrical target etc)

So it has nothing to do with relative currency movements at all.

Germany don't have their own currency - They have to abide by ECB policy or leave the EZ of course.

Bitcoin and gold are irrelevant obviously.

Nobody is "stealing" anything. Wages will adjust, nominal risk free rates will rise and so on across the curve and asset classes.

It's actually very straightforward.

You neglected to mention the BoJ: Twenty-two straight months of declining real wages through Feb 2015.

Relative currency movements don't matter? Try telling the South Koreans, as their export markets get squeezed to death by the swooning yen.

[zugzwang]

The countries which don't abolish cash will be forced to do this. Their currencies will rise and they will effectively import deflation from the rest of the world if they don't get of rid of cash. This will leaves only not national currencies as potential cash replacement.

It looks like SNB has already made some first steps

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-25/war-cash-migrates-switzerland

More victims of Keynesian collectivism. Property rights count for nothing if they can be instantly revoked by a central banker.

[R K]

You neglected to mention the BoJ: Twenty-two straight months of declining real wages through Feb 2015.

Relative currency movements don't matter? Try telling the South Koreans, as their export markets get squeezed to death by the swooning yen.

You really mustn't put words in my mouth Zugzwang!

How many months of declining real wages have we had in the UK also since 2008?

I wasn't talking about the existing currency wars I was talking about some form of co-ordinated, or even unco-ordinated but loosely coincident move to change the existing inflation targets. Since 2009 the QE moves have been more or less sequential with some overlap, with ECB going last. We know that, but FED, ECB, BoE haven't changed their inflation target - so that would be a different and quite bold step compared to QE within the existing inflation targetting regime.

As we saw on the other thread about the history the 2% cpi target these things can evolve quite quickly once change is in the air.

Edited April 26, 2015 by R K

[R K]

a glib dismissal of gold from a Keynesian who has proven by his own words NOT to understand gold.

and yes, inflation is theft of savings

I'm not an anything.

Of course gold is irrelevant. That's simply a statement of fact.

I understand gold perfectly well, thank you. I can view it with complete dissinterest. Perhaps it is you who cannot?

[slawek]

More victims of Keynesian collectivism. Property rights count for nothing if they can be instantly revoked by a central banker.

I am afraid that's the world we live in. The people at the top will do anything to keep the current system running. The whole QE is a big theft to maintain inflated asset prices and enrich elites. It is disgusting.

[Sledgehead]

Not a good thing for the common man, but will they fall hook line and sinker into the trap that is being laid.

Ofcourse they will.

Starbucks rolls out cashless payment in Germany

http://venturevillage.eu/starbucks-izettle-cashless-germany

"It is impossible to abolish cash or its equivalent for small local trade."

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/204365-citi-economist-says-it-might-be-time-to-abolish-cash/#entry1102707659

and yet:

"Details of the new offence of purchasing scrap metal for cash and how the new offence will be implemented from 3 December 2012."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-the-offence-of-buying-scrap-metal-for-cash

I am making a point of using cash more and more,.

Fine, but it won't stop the rise of the cashless soc.

Nor will bitcoin, imho, which I feel might well be a trojan, as already pointed out here:

"They would a love digital currency to really take root. Then just take it over. "

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/204365-citi-economist-says-it-might-be-time-to-abolish-cash/page-2#entry1102708000

There is a solution. You must vote for politicians who have clear beliefs about national security - ie people who are clearly patriots. Why do I say this? Because nothing is a greater threat to a country than a cashless economy. Why?

Just look at the rise of just-in-time consumerism. People have no savings and they increasingly shop on a daily basis. They have no buffer in their day to day lives whatsoever save the cash in their pockets and the credit at our retail outlets. If you remove the former, the entire populace becomes immediately and wholly vulnerable to a DoS attack on retail infrastructure.

Can you envisage the entire population suddenly finding themselves unable to buy breakfast one morning? Being unable to fill up their car? Being unable to buy a coffee, a bottle of water, an Egg McMuffin? The country would literally grind to a halt. Not a bullet need be fired. Not a single threat made. We would be rendered helpless and hopeless.

Does that sound like a threat a patriot would expose us to? So vote for a patriot and if you can't find one, vote for politicians who strongly claim to be (and thus are uniquely vulnerable to any charge of duplicitousness for attempting to expose us to such a threat). And in any case, start spreading this message amongst those you know. Defence of the realm should be the government's first role. We have arguably never been more vulnerable. It's such a shame the electorate seem more interested in the bribes politicians intend to shower upon us.

___________________________________________________

PS : interested in playing the person and not the ball on this issue? It's an open goal!

On the cash economy you have patriots.

On the cashless economy you have Willem Buiter:

"Buiter was born in The Hague, Netherlands on 26 September 1949. He is a national of the United States and the United Kingdom. (wiki)"

Not a tricky job to label this guy as somebody who will work for the highest bidder ;-)

Edited April 26, 2015 by Sledgehead

[evetsm]

I'm not an anything.

Of course gold is irrelevant. That's simply a statement of fact.

I understand gold perfectly well, thank you. I can view it with complete dissinterest. Perhaps it is you who cannot?

gold has been "irrelevant" for 3000 years. Gold is cash. They can withdraw all fiat cash, and gold will be there.

When they sought to make Iran the ultimate cashless society, sanctions caused Iran to buy nothing with any fiat cash outside of Iran, they used the ultimate"irrelevant" cash, gold:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162976

gold becomes extremely relevant when fiat money dies. As it always does, 100% certainty.

[R K]

gold has been "irrelevant" for 3000 years. Gold is cash. They can withdraw all fiat cash, and gold will be there.

When they sought to make Iran the ultimate cashless society, sanctions caused Iran to buy nothing with any fiat cash outside of Iran, they used the ultimate"irrelevant" cash, gold:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162976

gold becomes extremely relevant when fiat money dies. As it always does, 100% certainty.

Who are you trying so desperately to convince. Me or yourself? Fill yer boots. get rich. Whoopydo.

[zugzwang]

I've got a better idea. Let's establish a League of Failed Economists and seek to abolish their tenure instead.

[evetsm]

Who are you trying so desperately to convince. Me or yourself? Fill yer boots. get rich. Whoopydo.

have you actually got any facts in this debate, or just emotions ?

thought not.