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OurDayWillCome

Proportional Representation

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The public voted.

They are happy with having Labour / Conservative governments and MPs for the foreseeable future and don't want anybody else sticking their oar in thank you very much.

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Arrrrgh! The greens have 37!

I think PR would either be awful as nothing would get done, and so we would be leaderless (not much difference really!).

Or.

After a while we could get the procedures worked out and have some very lively debates about pretty much everything.

I think it's worth it... even if the greens have 37.

Arrrrgh! The greens have 37!

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The public voted.

They are happy with having Labour / Conservative governments and MPs for the foreseeable future and don't want anybody else sticking their oar in thank you very much.

AV was a fudged system but therein lies the problem with anyone proposing a more representative system.

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AV isn't that where everybody votes 2nd for the person they hate the least and they get in, so we all lose but just as badly?

How would you campaign for that? Well he was so bland I gave him my second vote. He didn't have a view, personality, or even a policy. I don't even know who he is, but because I didn't even realise he was alive, I voted him no 2. Vote 'Mr Grey!', the grey man, dressed in grey on a grey day.

Grey Britain at it's finest!

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AV isn't that where everybody votes 2nd for the person they hate the least and they get in, so we all lose but just as badly?

How would you campaign for that? Well he was so bland I gave him my second vote. He didn't have a view, personality, or even a policy. I don't even know who he is, but because I didn't even realise he was alive, I voted him no 2. Vote 'Mr Grey!', the grey man, dressed in grey on a grey day.

Grey Britain at it's finest!

Exactly, who was going to vote for a system like AV. Interesting thing is that this election will be the first in my lifetime where so many people are voting for something different where PR (not AV) would benefit them.

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Arrrrgh! The greens have 37!

I think PR would either be awful as nothing would get done, and so we would be leaderless (not much difference really!).

Or.

After a while we could get the procedures worked out and have some very lively debates about pretty much everything.

I'm not sure how well an alternative system would work in practice, but it would help people feel represented in parliament.

As it stands, if you are a middle of the road Lab/Con person happy with the status quo then you are covered as far as boring parliamentary debate is concerned. If you want green policies, anti-Europe policies, free smarties for children on Tuesdays policies, LVT policies (etc etc).. then you are not represented. You don't even have a voice.

I think most people could believe in politics if there was someone vocally fighting their corner.. even if they were outvoted by popular opinion.

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I think most people could believe in politics if there was someone vocally fighting their corner.. even if they were outvoted by popular opinion.

+1

I don't like the greens, even so I would like to see them represented in the house, just to hear them 'spout their nonsense'. It would be fantastic, and people could then make up their minds for next time. Same with Ukip, I'd love to see it. I truly would.

The depth of parliament would be fantastic, I don't think I would watch anything else on TV. Of course they will never do it, for fear that we might think for ourselves. Oooooh the Horror of it all! :lol:

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The Libs have gone very quiet on this in recent years even though they would still benefit from it. Here is an interesting chart showing who would gain and who would suffer:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11491399/Campaign-Calculus-Under-PR-Ukip-would-have-99-seats-and-the-Greens-could-be-kingmakers.html

The LDs stance on the whole PR vote issue baffled me. It was, in effect, the only major concession that they got out of the Tories in order to get them to cooperate with the Tories. They insisted on a referendum on PR voting within a certain timeframe and got it - after at least a decade of campaigning for a PR voting system whilst in opposition.

And then what happened? The referendum came and, if you blinked, you could easily have missed it! There was hardly any serious campaigning for it by the people who supposedly wanted it most - the LDs.

I can think of one of two reasons for this strange attitude when the referendum finally came......

1) Party policy of wanting to change the FPTP system to a PR system was never really passionately believed in by the party elites and the demand for it, when hammering out the terms of of the coalition agreement, was merely a scrap thrown to the rank and file party activists to keep them happy,

or....

2) The enthusiasm for PR by the party elite waned after the election as they became intoxicated with the outcome of finally getting seats in cabinet, via the supposedly unfair FPTP system they had railed against for so long, and deluded themselves that next time round (i.e. 2015) they would do even better getting even more MPs and so didn't need PR after all......

I'll bet that IF the LD party elites had any idea that their support would crater by 2015 they would have campaigned tooth and nail for getting rid of FPTP!

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Difficult choice... number 2? Number 1 was all they could hope for, but under number 2 they were there, right at the top! What can you do?

Number 1 or number 2.

I'd go for a number 2. It would be sweet relief. Afterwards you could wipe away all the hangers on and flush all your number 1's away!

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I'll bet that IF the LD party elites had any idea that their support would crater by 2015 they would have campaigned tooth and nail for getting rid of FPTP!

Their support cratered right after 2010. The proposed AV system wasn't PR but it was all the conservatives would offer. Then there was a lot of scare stuff about it from the Tories during the referendum.

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Their support cratered right after 2010. The proposed AV system wasn't PR but it was all the conservatives would offer. Then there was a lot of scare stuff about it from the Tories during the referendum.

Of course there was scare stuff from the Tories during the, very short, referendum campaign - what else were they going to do since they made clear they were opposed to getting rid of FPTP.

But, my point was, the LDs made hardly any real effort to sell the idea of getting rid of FPTP. Their performance (or lack of it!) was almost as if their hearts weren't really in it any more.

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Of course there was scare stuff from the Tories during the, very short, referendum campaign - what else were they going to do since they made clear they were opposed to getting rid of FPTP.

But, my point was, the LDs made hardly any real effort to sell the idea of getting rid of FPTP. Their performance (or lack of it!) was almost as if their hearts weren't really in it any more.

AV wasn't worth much to them.

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What could be interesting is the potential for disproportional representation in the form of a very vocal SNP with more seats than they warrant for the number of votes cast and the effect it could have on the outcome of the election.

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The public voted.

They are happy with having Labour / Conservative governments and MPs for the foreseeable future and don't want anybody else sticking their oar in thank you very much.

The public voted. And showed its ignorance.

But proportional representation wasn't on offer. The system offered was STV, which just introduces a post to "first-past-the-post", ensuring that the winning candidate in a constituency is preferred by at least 50% of voters over any other single candidate.

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What could be interesting is the potential for disproportional representation in the form of a very vocal SNP with more seats than they warrant for the number of votes cast and the effect it could have on the outcome of the election.

Blair's messing with our constitution made a constitutional crisis inevitable.

So far, the only proposal for a fix has come from the SNP - and they failed to persuade their own people. So now they're doing us all a favour by presenting us the crisis on a plate, so Westminster can no longer just sweep it under the carpet to fester.

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Blair's messing with our constitution made a constitutional crisis inevitable.

So far, the only proposal for a fix has come from the SNP - and they failed to persuade their own people. So now they're doing us all a favour by presenting us the crisis on a plate, so Westminster can no longer just sweep it under the carpet to fester.

There are other parties that are highlighting issues that the general public are more interested in but due to the situation where huge swathes of votes are cast aside whilst a small number of votes can be elevated is a real issue during this election.

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Blair's messing with our constitution made a constitutional crisis inevitable.

This constitutional crisis has been a long time coming and would have happened even without the nationalists. The share of the vote captured by the 2 largest parties has been falling for decades. The fact that both are now unable to form majority governments even under FPTP is down to that.

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The Libs have gone very quiet on this in recent years even though they would still benefit from it. Here is an interesting chart showing who would gain and who would suffer:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11491399/Campaign-Calculus-Under-PR-Ukip-would-have-99-seats-and-the-Greens-could-be-kingmakers.html

If there was PR the whole dynamic would change. Not a single wasted vote. There's a reason why UKIP do very well in the EU elections, and it's not just because the EU is where they chime the most with the electorate - people arent' stoopid, 3% were voting for them in the GE at the same time 30% were voting for them in the EU. That's not just due to different turnouts but different voting behaviours.

Why the ruling duopoly would change though is beyond me.

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This constitutional crisis has been a long time coming and would have happened even without the nationalists. The share of the vote captured by the 2 largest parties has been falling for decades. The fact that both are now unable to form majority governments even under FPTP is down to that.

No, it's down to blair being a **** thinking all those nationalists would turn labour (in scotland and wales), thus locking out the tories forever

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Its funny how politicians all say 'we need to get more people to vote' (usually by forcing them to do so, with threats of fines if they don't), but the one thing that would promote voting (ie making everyones votes count equally via PR) they refuse to do. We know this, as turnout in marginals/swing seats has been consistently higher.

Voters in marginal seats tend to be more engaged than those in safe seats and historic turnout statistics support this claim. In every UK election since 1950, turnout has been higher in marginal seats than the average national turnout,

http://www.political-intelligence.com/gen-election-a-z/m-for-marginals/

Scum.

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The public voted. And showed its ignorance.

But proportional representation wasn't on offer. The system offered was STV, which just introduces a post to "first-past-the-post", ensuring that the winning candidate in a constituency is preferred by at least 50% of voters over any other single candidate.

If you think the public made a bad call on electoral reform, wait until you see the mess they'll vote in on the 7th.

My bet's on a total car crash.

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At the very least the House of Lords should be fully PR with power to delay legislation until after another election or something to give them some teeth.

It is not like we are still Ye Olde England is it with each area being different with some King or Feudal Lord who beat the shit out of the peasants or was "here first" so gets to own everything.

I doubt I could tell what town I was in if I was blind folded and put out in a high street.

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