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And to MrXxx - I agree, the time management stuff is extra support and not necessarily the responsibility of the school. The tutor was primarily for the academic side but we got lucky with this young man actually being what mine wants to become - hence it is a better mix and more relevant and inspirational than some crusty old maths teacher.

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Gryffindor, you could ask the same about Firemen....Builders....People that run an EBay business in their spare time...oh, perhaps that's it, most people have 'spare time' and others wouldn't expect them to work in it without getting paid overtime or being compensated.

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Not at all, I do feel like they are just 'pawns' in a bigger game, but they play their part well. Don't you think?

Yes they work hard, and probably for a new teacher it must be very hard. The same with holidays. If the school is closed, then what are they supposed to do? Clean it?

But all this 'it's very difficult', 'we have to plan the lessons' blah, blah blah. It just doesn't cut it I'm afraid. It's the same thing every bloody year!

I wouldn't want to do it, kids are a pain in the ar$e.

no it isn't. its obvious you don't have a clue what you are talking about. I teach the structure of the Amazon Rainforest to a high flying top set year 8 class. takes 2 hours to plan and resource a good lesson. next year I have a bottom set year 8 class. Can I just role out the same lesson the next year? I can but they won't learn sod all and will most probably be a nightmare.

Not to mention everytime you have a new " in thing" from OFSTED that needs incorporating every 2 years. lessons that were outstanding 10 years ago will now be unsatidfactory as the criteria has changed due to the muppets you have voted in. 1st thing the head of dept does is ncorporate these new and fantastic ideas into lesson plans across all topics. ...hours upon hours of replanning

Not to mention the head of dept leaves or gets promoted to their level of incompetence.....then guess what, the new one wants to put their own stamp on stuff and change the whole curriculum.

Alevel specs change every 5 years or so, as do GCSE specs...complete rewrites.

My solution? pay expert panels to plan and resource whole schemes of work that teachers have access to where everything is resourced, differentiated and are the best lessons "experts" can muster. then if they fail don't blame the teachers.

I have done 70 hour weeks in the private sector and I can honestly say teaching is at least as hard as the most stressful job I had in the private sector, and I am by no means a left wing trougher. I hate the left more than the tories and they are scum of the earth

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Cheer up. gryffindor's case must be one of the thirty or so state boarding schools that accept day boarders. It is illegal for state schools to charge for education provided during school hours, or for admission. Schools of the type I've characterised are really discount private schools where you pay a fee so that your child gets the benefits of being at a selective school. Some of these schools are obviously very good schools.

Gryffindor's making shit up as he goes along. That much is obvious. I wonder if he's a bot.

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Gryffindor...so perhaps your 'teacher' is not a teacher but a facilitator, helping your son to achieve his own goals with the ability that he has already through his own motivation...this will probably be more useful for your son (especially when he moves onto HE) than a 'crusty old maths teacher' (your words not mine :-)) teaching him verbatim to pass an exam.

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I have just been looking for a tutor to help my son with his GCSE's (why the F I need to hire a tutor when I am paying £6,000 a year for him to attend a STATE school is an entirely different question!)

Searching on a tutor hunt site there appear to be well over 100 teachers in a 7 mile radius that cover a wide number of subjects. Pretty much all of them state they are available 'any evening after 5pm' and any time at the weekend.

Several that I contacted had 8-10 students working with them at the moment but had room for another. Perhaps these are just the organised ones?

In the end I opted for a nineteen year old - straight a*'s at A level and an enthusiastic young man not charging too much but earning enough to supplement his University fees.

the ones you see advertising are the ones doing either-

supply work cos they are crap

part time day jobs (3 days a week inschool)

or most likely,

full time teachers that have long since lost hope of ever doing the job right so just think- "fk this- I am going to milk this job for as much as I can whilst I can"

I have worked with many bad teachers who fall into the last category and shouldn't be in a classroom. Yet I have also seen many awesome teachers that hould be paid £50k a year minimum. the spectrum is so wide it's scary. paying good teachers £25k a year they will jack and you will be left with the dross

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HDMHI...they used to have a system where new ideas were considered and planned for, it was called the Local Authority Inspector for that subject...the system worked and then OFSTED was introduced with their 'experts' (read most incompetent in their subject)...

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Moving on from that - my main point was why are there so many teachers with so much spare time for tutoring when we are led to believe that they spend all the spare time planning and marking etc? (not that I blame them - for an extra £40-£50 per hour I would be free every evening as well!)

The last substantial piece of empirical work was the Labour government commissioned report by PwC into teacher workload. Couldn't find the full report on-line. From the Executive Summary:

We found that in terms of volume of work, teachers' and headteachers' working weeks are more intensive than most other occupations, with fifty to sixty hours being the norm. However, when spread out over the year, and allowing for school holidays, we found that the total volume of work was broadly comparable to other UK managers and professionals , although headteachers still work above the average level even on that annual basis. Teachers and headteachers therefore work more intensively during term times and some parts of the school holiday, but in return enjoy longer periods away from work than other equivalent occupations. We also compared teachers in England and Wales with teachers in other countries and found that, where data existed, the volume of work appeared similar. We should note, however, that both these types of comparisons were difficult to make due to different methods of collecting data.

We found that workload issues went much wider than simply total hours worked. Many teachers felt they were not in control of their work, that it caused them stress, and that they resented some tasks, especially those carried out at weekends. However, many others, while working similar hours, enjoyed their work and found it stimulating and productive; we found that age difference was a factor in some cases, but that school leadership and management also appeared to have a major influence on teacher attitudes to work.

Nobody should be seriously pretending that teacher's can't find a couple of hours a week to do some tutoring (or in extreme cases, ten hours). Even working a fifty-hour week at the sharp end of the year still leaves plenty of waking hours to chase up a little extra scratch. I don't tutor, but mostly because I think it's a rip-off for the parents unless the kid is well-motivated, and if that is the case, to sit and talk to someone about a subject you love and help them master it, given that the society in which you are embedded is giving you a secure job and promising you a decent enough pension... I'd rather give it away, which I do from time to time.

You could even make the moral case that if a teacher is de facto employed by the state to educate, then refusing to tutor for free is de facto working to rule. The fact that some parents end up having to pay for tutoring pay evidences that there is a sufficient shortage of the skills you need (people who can teach effectively) to mean that the capable maths teacher working to rule by refusing to tutor for free has some leverage...

It's always markets really, all the way down.

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Mr Xxx - yes, I think that is a large part of how we see it. You have put it well.

Frozen Out - which 'shit' exactly am I making up???

First it was a tutor, then it was a life coach, then it was a kid with amazing UK exam results, then a kid with amazing UK exam results who hadn't been schooled in the UK, then 6k for state school, then 6k for not a state school??

******** from start to finish. Member for a couple of months and this is the first time you've been inspired to post. I've been mooching around internet fora in one way or another since the internet was about a dozen pages long and I know shit being made up when I see it. Just do one and let's get back on topic.

Edited by frozen_out
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I have just realised HDMHI you said you are a teacher yet you have got to mess around on the computer on a BANK HOLIDAY...haven't you got any marking/lesson prep to do?!...or even 'private tuition?

...you see everyone, teachers, forever complaining but inherently lazy, money-grabbing so-en-sos

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I don't really begrudge a senior teacher on £37k, but the holidays seem a bit much if people are working in their holidays, make it official.

I do begrudge all the "senior leadership team" BS. These seem to be made up jobs that never existed previously. This where you need to be questioning if the job should exist, or if it needs to exist why it is paying more than a teacher.

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Reddog, your last statement could be argued for any work really...Why should an top exec get paid a yearly salary that would take a cleaner 300 years of full-time work to earn?... they are both 'sweeping dirt under the carpet'!

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Frozen Out - not sure why I should bother to reply but here goes

It is, and always has been a state school. Fees are 6k per year.

We wanted a tutor. we were lucky to find one that could also do some 'life coaching'.

He was born abroad. Studied in UK for some years. Was invited to the US for two years because of his sports achievements. Came back to UK and sat A levels.

What part of that is inconsistent with any previous post?

Think I will go back to lurking.

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Agreed - but most people don't have unions telling us they 18 hours a day, 6 days a week.

Was just asking, not necessarily stating an opinion.

I think some young gullible graduates on Teach First working at schools with a somewhat predatory management style probably get too close to these hours for this to be quite as amusing as it might at first glance appear. I've spoken to tired looking Teach First teachers claiming five twelve hour days and six hours at the weekend. I raise my eyebrows in horror and suggest that it is a marathon and not a sprint, but these people would be way off at the tail of the distribution. At a well-run school with supportive management, an experienced practitioner ought to be able to hold it down to an adequate level of delivery with about 45 hours a week, with occasional pinch points where you touch 50-55 hours and then those blessed holidays where you defer the marking you should have done already and cleaning you ought to be doing right now with endless hours on hpc discussing house prices.. Hang on! Mods! Mods!

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Curious how so many people actually want labour to be paid less have worse working conditions and have some bizarre notion that this will mean they will enjoy a better existance as a result.

If you desperately want the luxurious conditions of being a teacher then why dont you be one? It's apparently a p1ss easy job and you get paid more than any other.

+1, obviously not as good as some are trying to make out! :P

Edit to add: my tuppence worth, is that all jobs have easy and hard elements and some people will be able to do things better and more efficiently than others. In my job I heard no end of moaning from some my colleagues and I'm sure some of them work really hard. I don't! But I am efficient in my role and I make my job easy! I work less but produce more than many of my grumbling colleagues!

What did Bill Gates say, that he would rather employ a lazy person than hard-working one because the lazy one would always find a more efficient way of doing things! :P

Edited by renting til I die
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One thing maybe worth adding to my "£37k is OK for a senior teacher" statement.

This is a lot more than the norm in many poorer towns. Especially when you consider you often have couples where the husband and wife are teachers.

In such towns any one doing a semi decent private sector job probably isn't going to be on that sort of money. This means the message "the only way to a descent job is in the public sector" gets through to the general public (because in such a town it is actually true)

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Frozen Out - not sure why I should bother to reply but here goes

It is, and always has been a state school. Fees are 6k per year.

We wanted a tutor. we were lucky to find one that could also do some 'life coaching'.

He was born abroad. Studied in UK for some years. Was invited to the US for two years because of his sports achievements. Came back to UK and sat A levels.

What part of that is inconsistent with any previous post?

Think I will go back to lurking.

Highly suspicious how the story evolved just fast enough every time the irony in your initial post was pointed out.
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Surely this is true of any job that has a nationally negotiated wage scale - IIRC someone tried to challenge this but the unions went into meltdown?

yep, not going to disagree with that. Its just very noticeable for teachers are various NHS jobs, because in many towns these are more or less the only professional jobs.
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Moving the discussion on a little, lets talk about the introduction of PBR (payment by results) in teaching...this is something that was touched on about 20 years ago and is now gaining more momentum...thoughts (MrXxx waits for the 'fireworks!)

But what results? Exam results aren't all they are cracked up to be.

We wanted a tutor. we were lucky to find one that could also do some 'life coaching'.

In Chorlton?

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Reddog..regarding £37K...hence my previous comment about surplus of some teachers 'Up North' but a shortage 'Down South'....£37K x 3 would buy you a 2-3 bed house up North, down South it would buy you a garage....if you were lucky!

Bear in mind though that £37K would be a teacher with at least 10 years experience on top of their degree AND probably a second in or head of department...as a secretary/PA in London you could be earning £25-30K....would you be happy for a secretary to teach your son/daughter (nothing against secretaries!).

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  • 429 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • Even
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      • up 5%



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