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Teachers Union Nut Getting Bolshy Again - Trying To Protect Students Salaries And Pensions...


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The difference between a mere wage-droid and a professional person is that the one has no expectation of working more than his contracted hours (often measured by a clock), while the other expects always to do what it takes - commonly a lot more than specified in some contract.

There are those who describe teaching as a "profession", thereby assigning teachers to the latter camp. Are you saying they're fundamentally wrong?

False dichotomy - either be a wage droid and do exactly what you're contracted, or be a professional and do whatever old shit someone asks you to do regardless of how long it takes and how much value there is in it.

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I have just been looking for a tutor to help my son with his GCSE's (why the F I need to hire a tutor when I am paying £6,000 a year for him to attend a STATE school is an entirely different question!)

Perhaps your son is just, you know, thick? It happens. Don't beat yourself up about it.

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The whole point of modern, state-run schools is to enstupidificate children so they'll believe anything they're told and never grow up.

The only reason parents put up with it is because they need the schools for childcare so they can both go out to work.

Funniest thing I've read today, and funny because its true.

And we don't always see eye to eye politically either.

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False dichotomy - either be a wage droid and do exactly what you're contracted, or be a professional and do whatever old shit someone asks you to do regardless of how long it takes and how much value there is in it.

Thats a tad opimistic - plenty of wage droids forced to do whatever old shit somebody asks regardless....

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Gryffindor your argument above seems rather circular...'Why the F I need to hire a tutor when I am paying £6000 a year to send him to a state school?...from this I can only assume that you believe the 'system' is in some way failing you son?

.....yet you employ a 19 year old student (from that same system) to educate your son...I can only assume from this that the system is working by producing an excellent 19 year old 'teacher' or that a compromise in being made at the quality/price level?

I believe this is the mistake that parents make with league tables..they consider a school to be excellent based on its exam grades rather than on the 'added value' it can give to their child...the two are very different measures, one being quantitative and the other qualitative.

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In the end I opted for a nineteen year old - straight a*'s at A level and an enthusiastic young man not charging too much but earning enough to supplement his University fees.

That might work on an individual level sometimes but a 19 year old who's started university is not a teacher. He may have a gift for it perhaps but subject knowledge is about 20% of what it takes to be a teacher. Your subject knowledge can be top notch but unless you know how to impart that knowledge onto your students, who's abilities, behaviours and personalities are quite varied, that knowledge you have is almost worth jack shit. Anyone who thinks otherwise does not understand what teaching is.

Edited by moedo12
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Nope - some state schools are allowed to charge. I happen to live virtually next door to one of those. It is, however, a pretty good school. Fees for 2 kids is a large chunk of (after tax) cash

Good lord, don't they realise this is just some temporary blip, just like two wage earners. All it means is that everybody will end up paying these fees. How much better off will they be then?

I could cry.... :(

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This is so true Moedo...I have seen so many university lecturers that are world class in their subject area but cannot impart their knowledge yet others at a more junior level that are 'natural' communicators...the universities are only just 'catching' onto this and are now insisting that their lecturers go through a period of training in educational techniques. As time goes on and the 'customer' (i.e. fee paying students) 'flex their muscles' by choosing 'with their feet' the quality level will hopefully improve.

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Mr Xxx -

Not entirely true. My son plays a sport at a national level and struggles to fit this in with his studies. He wants to go to the USA to continue his education with a sports scholarship.

The student we have located has also played sport internationally. He has studied in the States for two years and was not born in the UK (we are using him as a language tutor) so he is not entirely a product of the current UK system.

As well as the normal tuition he is providing motivation and also time management skills.

And the league tables aren't everything. The school offers a whole load of sports (1.5 hours at least every day) and other activities (D of E etc) and tends to turn out well rounded students which is why we like it.

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I am a teacher and I am really enjoying this thread.

There is a shortage of teachers but don't worry it will correct itself eventually. 38% of new Teachers don't make it through the first year but who cares?

Pensions. Teachers are on a very short list of occupations who find it very difficult to get critical illness cover from commercial organisations; there is a reason for that, they get ill and peg out quickly. Their pensions might not be a costly as you think plus Teachers do pay a considerable amount towards them.

The more Teachers are undervalued and undermined, the harder it gets to recruit them. The more pressure that is put on them, the more they break down. The worse the pay gets relative to the benefits of doing the job, the more people will leave.

My employer treats its staff like the enemy and yet can't work out why they can't recruit staff; its hilarious. We have an increasing number of unqualified teachers now because they are cheap.

I wouldn't recommend teaching to anyone at the moment, it has become an undervalued occupation and you will be treated like dirt but no doubt that will change eventually. I am not sure where this will all end but keep it up chaps, I am loving this thread.

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I am a teacher and I am really enjoying this thread.

I wouldn't recommend teaching to anyone at the moment, it has become an undervalued occupation and you will be treated like dirt but no doubt that will change eventually. I am not sure where this will all end but keep it up chaps, I am loving this thread.

I wouldn't hold your breath. Add Teaching to all the other careers that have come back from the edge....

Well there's ..... erm and what about ..... Any time now ..... I can think of ..... errr ...... I know...... ummm....

Name one.... at any time... no pressure. Just one. Even for a short time? For five minuites? 10 seconds?

50K a year for swanning around in your corduroy trousers doesn't seem so bad now, does it?

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...

I could cry.... :(

Cheer up. gryffindor's case must be one of the thirty or so state boarding schools that accept day boarders. It is illegal for state schools to charge for education provided during school hours, or for admission. Schools of the type I've characterised are really discount private schools where you pay a fee so that your child gets the benefits of being at a selective school. Some of these schools are obviously very good schools.

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Nevertheless, some of the more overblown claims such as you've posted to this thread are neither more helpful nor accurate than the NUT and mindless lefties whinging.

My pal is a teacher and tells me himself they have a cruisey time - is he lying to me ? And if so why ?

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Yes, it is a state boarding school that has 'day boarders' (i.e. they start at 8am and can stay until 7pm) - however it is not selective - that would be a grammar school which we don't have in my neck of the woods.

It is also free if you don't earn enough to pay the fees though I have no idea how they work that out e.g

40k per year income and 60k mortgage - poor and doesn't have to pay.

45k per year income and 2k per month rent - minted and can pay.

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My pal is a teacher and tells me himself they have a cruisey time - is he lying to me ? And if so why ?

He either closely associates with people on similar salaries in other jobs, or had had another job once. I'm of the view that teachers incomes should be set according to the local market and abilities of the individual. A good teacher should be able to earn well. An average one shouldn't. A poor one shouldn't be tolerated. My awareness is that there is substantial qualified teacher unemployment.

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Yes, it is a state boarding school that has 'day boarders' (i.e. they start at 8am and can stay until 7pm) - however it is not selective - that would be a grammar school which we don't have in my neck of the woods.

It is also free if you don't earn enough to pay the fees though I have no idea how they work that out e.g

40k per year income and 60k mortgage - poor and doesn't have to pay.

45k per year income and 2k per month rent - minted and can pay.

Fair comment. I'd guess I'm suggesting there is some surreptitious selection going on - I was assuming that day-boarders have to live in a catchment area. If you get a knock on effect on house prices and rents in the catchment area, then you have a leaky but non-trivial selection mechanism set up, but I'm speculating and respect and encourage any inclination you have to keep details out of a public space.

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To an extent you are correct - but only to the extent that there is an effective catchment selection criteria for any good school via the house price mechanism. Just because daddy's got money doesn't mean the kids are bright though!

Again, fair comment. I take your point.

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Simple pay the good teachers well, get rid of the poor teachers instead of protecting them and passing them from pillar to post......I was taught by some brilliant teachers and also teachers that didn't want to be there, they were not teacher material...simple.

Pay the good teachers more to work in the worst performing schools.

most snesible thing I have read. In all work places there are good and bad, performers and non performers. Saying all teachers are unorganised or all teachers don't make any difference to the textbook highlights the fact that people don't have a clue about what the role of a good teacher is. the only similarity between a good teacher and a bad one is the time they spend in the classroom. a prolific car salesman and a useless one may appear the same, however the reults will be very different

sack the worst, pay the good uns more. If you listen to some they would want to sack the bad uns and pay the gooduns about £20k....sorry but even the most unemployable graduates with thirds from open university aren't going to do the job for that.

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Gryffindor interesting post.

So part of the reason your son may be struggling with some of his subjects is down to time management, motivation prioritization of his interests/subjects and language skills....are these (or should these be) the responsibility of his teachers?....I can see that you are a proactive parent that perhaps thinks not, and hence why you are getting him the extra support that he needs BUT this is extra support....Very often you hear the criticism of parents that expect 'The School' to be responsible for everything regarding THEIR son/daughter (including behaviour) yet forget THEIR responsibilities as parents.

As for the extra curricular aspect, it is nice to see somebody who appreciates that education is about more than just the three 'R's).

In reply to Douglass if you are still reading (and others), sometimes good teachers leave the profession not as a result of the salary but due to the conditions, interference fro government and lack of parental support.....perhaps this is why others are reluctant to consider such a 'cushy' profession?

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Moving on from that - my main point was why are there so many teachers with so much spare time for tutoring when we are led to believe that they spend all the spare time planning and marking etc? (not that I blame them - for an extra £40-£50 per hour I would be free every evening as well!)

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Moving the discussion on a little, lets talk about the introduction of PBR (payment by results) in teaching...this is something that was touched on about 20 years ago and is now gaining more momentum...thoughts (MrXxx waits for the 'fireworks!)

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  • 429 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • up 5%



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