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Teachers Union Nut Getting Bolshy Again - Trying To Protect Students Salaries And Pensions...

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No worries here, its only the NUT, nothing much will happen....because the NUT is weak?...no, because their members have spent so long letting themselves getting walked over (due to voting against their leadership) they should all have WELCOME tattoed on their ars@s

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Electioneering for the Labour party surely?

Yep. Fear fear fear. Eeeek! Smelly conservatives ruining our shortened working day and 3 months off a year. You nasty torys you. You're a bad, bad party!

A mirage of fear for 1 month and then actual desperation for the next 60.

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Why are teachers (especially primary school teachers) on anything above the minimum wage anyway?

Like everyone else, I went to school, and I just cant work it out. Staggers me many earn more than nurses.

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Why are teachers (especially primary school teachers) on anything above the minimum wage anyway?

Like everyone else, I went to school, and I just cant work it out. Staggers me many earn more than nurses.

The short answer is because they have an organisation to represent their interests. Just like investment bankers and the Bank of England.

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Why are teachers (especially primary school teachers) on anything above the minimum wage anyway?

Like everyone else, I went to school, and I just cant work it out. Staggers me many earn more than nurses.

I'm not a teacher, have no relatives who are teachers and know people who have gone into teaching that I wouldn't want near a kids' education. That's my disclaimer :-)

But I think teaching is fundamental and it's a tough job to accomplish if you are not in a charmed school in a place like Cheltenham.

Sensible salaries are important as is equipping teachers with the freedom and resources to teach - to do the job they would like to enjoy.

And if teachers aren't respected, but instead continually sniped at, how can we expect children to value education so that they pay attention and learn enough to see through politicians in order to elect the right political parties ?

Edited by LiveinHope

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And if teachers aren't respected, but continually sniped at, how can we expect children to value education so that they pay attention and learn enough to see through politicians and elect the right political parties ?

The whole point of modern, state-run schools is to enstupidificate children so they'll believe anything they're told and never grow up.

The only reason parents put up with it is because they need the schools for childcare so they can both go out to work.

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The whole point of modern, state-run schools is to enstupidificate children so they'll believe anything they're told and never grow up.

The only reason parents put up with it is because they need the schools for childcare so they can both go out to work.

But surely, teachers teach the curriculum they are given and assess and meet targets as they are told to do so, also ?

I'm sure you're not saying stupidification is what the teachers want to achieve. Although of course they may not know know any different being a product of the same state 'system'.

What did they used to say about the French, their tolerance of farmer's disputes and their connection to 'reality' ? "No one is more than one generation away from being a farmer"

With regard to the second point. So one parent goes out to work to afford the child care. Is that because they value a career over parenting, or because of the cost of living today. Either is a shame.

Edited by LiveinHope

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I'm not a teacher, have no relatives who are teachers and know people who have gone into teaching that I wouldn't want near a kids' education. That's my disclaimer :-)

But I think teaching is fundamental and it's a tough job to accomplish if you are not in a charmed school in a place like Cheltenham.

Sensible salaries are important as is equipping teachers with the freedom and resources to teach - to do the job they would like to enjoy.

And if teachers aren't respected, but instead continually sniped at, how can we expect children to value education so that they pay attention and learn enough to see through politicians in order to elect the right political parties ?

This.

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

I would want teachers on a decent competitive salary simply because you'd want the most able to want to do it.

Minimum wage... well where would be the attraction to teaching then?

Anyone that wants teachers on minimum wage is Gove mental. And that's the worst kind (I've heard).

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I'm 3 years in. Was full time but now part time as I am ok financially and it was the only way I could do the job effectively. Full time was a 7 day a week job. I have had several "real jobs" :P before teaching as well as being self employed. i took a pay cut to go into teaching.

1. I do not agree with the Teachers Pension scheme or public sector pensions in general....they are immoral.

2. I do not agree with pay bands and automatic progression. a new in teacher on 22k can be actually better and a more effective practitioner than a 15 years in teacher that is just waiting for retirement and doesn't really want to be in a classroom with young people....yet they are on 37k? lol...joke.

3. 13 weeks holiday a year? erm...not if you are doing the job right. half terms I lose 2 days minimum catching up on the nonsense I physically didn't have the time to do previously and planning the next couple of weeks lessons for the next half term- good teachers always make lessons better than the last time they taught them, it never stops.

4. Do some maths. 20 lessons per week. assume 3 repeats= 14 lessons to plan per week. To do it properly and to teach lessons that are actually any good = minimum of 2 hours per lesson= 28 hours per week on just planning, thats before pastoral follow up/emails/ detentions/ marking/ sticking numbers and grades on a spreadsheet and the mountain of other nonsense you have to do. If I knock up a quick one (30 minutes) there is a price to pay in regards to either behaviour/learning/interest levels/ weak & strong learners not catered for correctly or all of the above.

5. I would quite happily have 5 weeks holiday per year if I NEVER had to take any work home. I can't think of any career in the private sector that involves as many hours spent outside of the workplace.....unless they are far better paid ofc. The 8 weeks extra holiday is nowhere near enough to compensate for the hours I do at home. To do the job properly and never take any work home you would only teach 2 lessons a day, as you would need the other 7 hours for the mountain of other shite. Midnight finishes or even later are commonplace for a teacher that is doing the job right.

6. Do I want any sympathy? absolutely not, I chose to do the job and I can choose to pack it in anytime I like.

The one thing I don't agree with is that the Unions group together pay, pensions, and working conditions for when they strike. I would strike with regards to working conditions/PPA time as TIME is a thing I don't have enough of. I refuse to strike for pensions as their very existence is immoral IMO.

The taxpayer needs to decide what they want from teachers and how much they think they are worth for the time they spend. Just don't expect teachers to teach 20+ lessons a week, and cover other staff lessons, breaks/dinners/after school stuff for £20k a year, as well as do all the mountain of shite there is to do.....or at least if you do expect that, then expect even more dog turd lessons and even more unmotivated dog turd teachers. You can't have it all I'm afraid :ph34r:

Edited by houses-do-my-head-in

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I'm 3 years in. Was full time but now part time as I am ok financially and it was the only way I could do the job effectively. Full time was a 7 day a week job. I have had several "real jobs" :P before teaching as well as being self employed. i took a pay cut to go into teaching.

....

I don't think unfunded public sector pensions are immoral, I think they are illegal and will be defaulted on sometime soon.

As far as the rest of your comment goes re: teaching time + lessons plans, I have a friend who teaches Maths 11-16 - age not year!

He's a very good teacher.

He has ~60% teacher time i.e. out of 5 x 7h, he's has 20 odd chalk-hours, basicall 20 hours/week.

As far as lesson plans goes, well, the curriculum only changes a bit, if at all, over the years.

He had to invest some time in planning his lessons but after that those plans can be used the following year.

As far as content, he buys the odd text book and checks - not copies - the material out and bases his lessons on it.

He does some marking - but is relatively easy and can be done in his down time. He's very organised; a lot of teachers are not.

As far as holidays - he never works in them, not out of principles, just that he never has too.

He did used to work before. He says there is no comparison - the private sector was much more harder.

He is off the firm opinion that 50% of teachers should be recruited after they have done ~ 10 years work before starting teaching.

He is of the firm opinion that most of teachers coming straight from their PGCE are pretty useless. It does not help that the bulk of them did the PGCE due to being pretty unemployable.

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Any job is easy if you are good at it.

We just need to attract the best people who want to be teachers into 'teaching'.

For those, I am sure it is not just about salary or holidays or pension.

Recruitment needs to exclude both the incompetents and those for whom it is 'just about the salary, holidays or pension'

I am sure a feeling of being 'valued' and 'respected' would be a good start.

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Any job is easy if you are good at it.

We just need to attract the best people who want to be teachers into 'teaching'.

For those, I am sure it is not just about salary or holidays or pension.

Recruitment needs to exclude both the incompetents and those for whom it is 'just about the salary, holidays or pension'

I am sure a feeling of being 'valued' and 'respected' would be a good start.

That would be about 80% of the teachers from my old school.

Im all for teaching, or any job, to have a broad, wide, inclusive, recruitment pool.

But if you are going to to that then you need to have an idea of good and bad, and sack the bad.

My teacher friend is of the opinion that the best way to learn is to sit down and go through the books.

Sure, provide some structure - say timetable x hours for sitting down and make sure the kids do it.

Have some small tests to check the stages.

The hurdle for any teacher is - 'Do they add any value to the text book?'

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This.

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

I would want teachers on a decent competitive salary simply because you'd want the most able to want to do it.

Minimum wage... well where would be the attraction to teaching then?

Anyone that wants teachers on minimum wage is Gove mental. And that's the worst kind (I've heard).

Not at all. Detroit teachers have some of the highest salaries in the US and produce the worst outcomes. The best performing LEA in the UK has a lower per-pupil allocation than the worst!

The biggest factor to a kids development is home life. Teachers count for very very little. I had a wonderfully engaging biology teacher at secondary school and still did crap in it. Had a crap maths teacher and got top grades. It doesnt matter. I appreciate you calling me mental, but very few people are attracted to teaching initially. And anyway, for most, they fall into it after realizing they are literally never going to get anything other than teaching that offers more than minimum wage...ive lost count of the number of women ive met around 30 who have tried making something of themselves in their 20s...failed, and just gone into teaching because of the comparatively fantastic wage and benefits, not because they care about learning....Paying them anything above minimum wage is taking away from services that do require a certain level of competency and attracting people who are just in it for money.

The old saying 'those who can, do. Those who cant, teach' has never been more true.

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Simple pay the good teachers well, get rid of the poor teachers instead of protecting them and passing them from pillar to post......I was taught by some brilliant teachers and also teachers that didn't want to be there, they were not teacher material...simple.

Pay the good teachers more to work in the worst performing schools.

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Any job is easy if you are good at it.

We just need to attract the best people who want to be teachers into 'teaching'.

For those, I am sure it is not just about salary or holidays or pension.

Recruitment needs to exclude both the incompetents and those for whom it is 'just about the salary, holidays or pension'

I am sure a feeling of being 'valued' and 'respected' would be a good start.

It's a long time ago, but ...

Funnily enough, my recollection is that my contemporaries and I valued and respected some but not all our teachers. The ones we valued and respected were those who did a good job, meaning they motivated us to take an interest in their subjects and more generally treated us well.

That's the complete opposite to the NUT specimens, who even back then (the 1970s) were taking various forms of "industrial action" to protest against something.

On the one hand, bad teachers - the NUT - protesting. On the other hand, good teachers, non-NUT, getting on with the job. Some things just don't change, though the attitude of other teaching unions on the fringe of NUT-rottenness does seem to vary a bit more.

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Not at all. Detroit teachers have some of the highest salaries in the US and produce the worst outcomes. The best performing LEA in the UK has a lower per-pupil allocation than the worst!

The biggest factor to a kids development is home life. Teachers count for very very little. I had a wonderfully engaging biology teacher at secondary school and still did crap in it. Had a crap maths teacher and got top grades. It doesnt matter. I appreciate you calling me mental, but very few people are attracted to teaching initially. And anyway, for most, they fall into it after realizing they are literally never going to get anything other than teaching that offers more than minimum wage...ive lost count of the number of women ive met around 30 who have tried making something of themselves in their 20s...failed, and just gone into teaching because of the comparatively fantastic wage and benefits, not because they care about learning....Paying them anything above minimum wage is taking away from services that do require a certain level of competency and attracting people who are just in it for money.

The old saying 'those who can, do. Those who cant, teach' has never been more true.

So the academic / ability bar for entry needs to be raised, significantly.

So pay a sensible salary and provide good resources and conditions in return that both the teachers and pupils will benefit from using.

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It's a long time ago, but ...

Funnily enough, my recollection is that my contemporaries and I valued and respected some but not all our teachers. The ones we valued and respected were those who did a good job, meaning they motivated us to take an interest in their subjects and more generally treated us well.

That's the complete opposite to the NUT specimens, who even back then (the 1970s) were taking various forms of "industrial action" to protest against something.

On the one hand, bad teachers - the NUT - protesting. On the other hand, good teachers, non-NUT, getting on with the job. Some things just don't change, though the attitude of other teaching unions on the fringe of NUT-rottenness does seem to vary a bit more.

From my GCSE days, I had a good biology and geography teacher. I have an OK maths teachers followed by 1 year of useless supply teachers. I had a technical drawing and design + tech teacher who spent 2 years teaching the class something other than the curriculum - the entire classes failed by exams. English was a series of airy fariy women who never did anything concrete.

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From my GCSE days, I had a good biology and geography teacher. I have an OK maths teachers followed by 1 year of useless supply teachers. I had a technical drawing and design + tech teacher who spent 2 years teaching the class something other than the curriculum - the entire classes failed by exams. English was a series of airy fariy women who never did anything concrete.

That's a failure of the system and the school's management, and, of course, the individual teachers that are a product of both.

It needs to be corrected, not punished.

Edited by LiveinHope

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Got to get my cards on the table here: I'm married to a teacher (and for the most part I have a severe dislike of teachers), but much of what's written on this thread is nonsense.

1. The politics of working in a school are mental. Most people couldn't handle the sniping, backbiting and self-serving that goes on. Senior management wield so much power that if you cross a headteacher you will never work again in any school in the area.

2. The union are toothless swine. My wife has been in a redundancy situation (could go into detail on this, face didn't fit but she's an outrageously good teacher - they made her redundant cause they didn't like her, gave her a payoff then tried to re-employ her. Then she walked into another job at a school 10 minutes down the road), and other situations since.The union (NUT at least) are useless, all mouth no trousers. My wife now subscribes to another union.

3. Teachers do not have enough time to do everything they are expected to do. That's a fact. I know a lot of teachers across the entire spectrum from outstanding to useless. The capability/organisational skill of the teacher has nothing to do with how much time they work at home. My wife does at least 2 hours a night and she'll be in work tomorrow to teach kids who are close to exam time and want extra help.

4. The standard of teaching now is outrageous compared to what it was when I was at school, this was an eye-opener for me. Grade inflation isn't all because exams are easier, teaching methods and standards ARE higher than 20 years ago. Paradoxically the kids are dumb as a box of frogs. Mainly because they don't get out and interact with other people enough.

As I've said to my wife on numerous occasions: The way for teachers to take industrial action is by work to rule. Do exactly what is timetabled and nothing more. The education system couldn't function without teachers putting in significant unpaid time.

Edited by frozen_out

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How hard can it be? Teach the same $hit to different people over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again!

Unless you are too busy teaching them to be communists. That might take some time. :D

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I always love when teachers tell everyone that they don't get good holidays and work all through them. Its total bull and every teacher knows it.

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