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Steppenpig

European Price Comparison

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Very difficult to make fair comparisons between cities let alone countries but I tried to select equivalents. Searched for 3 bed property (4 room in europe) Sizes in France were a bit smaller (~100sq m) than in Germany. Selected median. I chnged estate agency half way through France, as the results per page was easier to handle. In GBP and euros. I ignored taxes and service charges, which can be major iems.

Capital City, London, Clapham North

Buy - 700k

Rent - 2383

Berlin, Schöneberg

Buy - 629k

Rent - 1778

Paris, 11th Arr

Buy - 810k

Rent - 2802

Major City, Manchester

Buy - 195k

Rent - 1100

Bielefeld

Buy - 261k

Rent - 700

Lyon

Buy - 239k

Rent - 950

Coast/Port, Southampton

Buy - 245k

Rent - 995

Bristol

Buy - 300k

Rent - 995

Hamburg

Buy - 755k

Rent - 1835

Bordeaux

Buy - 350k

Rent - 960

I hate to say it, but maybe prices aren't quite as overvalued in the UK as we think. As mentioned on this thread, once you get out in the country, many places in Europe can be cheaper.

[edit] I have accidentally used 4 rooms and above instead of exactly 4 rooms in my search. This will have inflated the prices in Europe . For example, the Bielefeld property should be 257k, not 261k. I will correct them next week, if this thread is still around]

Edited by Steppenpig

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You may be interested in this thread where I did some comparisons including average salaries

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/202182-vive-la-recovery-french-bank-dumps-uk-assets-merged-topics/?p=1102633653

Lille 177,000 euros - compare to Leeds, a broadly similar town with an average house price of 212,000 euros but if we allow for average salaries is the equivalent of 163,000 euros.

source: Notaires de France

average salary in France 2,128 euros/month (source: ministère du Travail)

average salary UK: 2,760 euros/month (source: Office for National Statistics)

Oxford average house price: 426,000 euros, or 329,000 euros relative to national average wages. Grenoble house price 311,000. So the a broadly similar picture of unaffordability to Lille and Leeds.

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Thanks, this is interesting.

Are rental yields in Manchester really 6-7%? (I don't know Manchester market at all)

Good call. There seem to be a lot of very high end flats to rent, but not many to buy, so the simple median of each category will not fairly reflect the returns.

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Your links arent the best they just show lots of property.

The one in Bielefeld is 184k Euro, not £261K

http://www.immobilienscout24.de/Suche/S-4/P-2/Wohnung-Kauf/Nordrhein-Westfalen/Bielefeld/-/4,00-?pagerReporting=true

At the top of the page, you can see there are "79 Eigentumswohnungen in Bielefeld" . They are ranked in increasing price, the median is number 79/2 = 38.5, there are 20 properties per page, so it is the second from bottom

Edited by Steppenpig

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You may be interested in this thread where I did some comparisons including average salaries

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/202182-vive-la-recovery-french-bank-dumps-uk-assets-merged-topics/?p=1102633653

I think you're using the GBP figure for Oxford house prices and the euro figure for UK incomes. Prices in France (in major cities) aren't that great when you look at local incomes, but Oxford really is more expensive than Grenoble. Also, I would think that Grenoble wages are higher than the average in France, whereas Oxford wages aren't.

Oxford average house price £420k / UK average annual wage £27k = 15.5

Grenoble average house price 311k euro / France average annual wage 25.5k euro = 12.2

Edited by richc

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You are probably not comparing like for like.

I don't think anyone in the UK knows how to measure an apartment in square meters.
Comparing the two markets that I know:
Capital City, London, Clapham North
Buy - 700k
Rent - 2383
Lots of very old houses, mixed in with some British style new builds, south of the river, what can I say.
Hamburg
Buy - 755k
Rent - 1835
Very central, short commute to high paying jobs, including large high spec apartments.

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The economist link below has some comparisons for different countries

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/11/global-house-prices

From that it looks like Canada and the UK are well backward compared to a lot of other countries having the craziest of house prices and the average real terms German house price is less than half of the UK and Canadian prices. Germany seems to have a progressive policy on house prices.

Both the UK and Canada are lagging well behind in establishing a sensible market and especially in the UK causing massive damage to its economy.

Edited by billybong

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You are probably not comparing like for like.

I don't think anyone in the UK knows how to measure an apartment in square meters.
Comparing the two markets that I know:
Capital City, London, Clapham North
Buy - 700k
Rent - 2383
Lots of very old houses, mixed in with some British style new builds, south of the river, what can I say.
Hamburg
Buy - 755k
Rent - 1835
Very central, short commute to high paying jobs, including large high spec apartments.

I compared London to Berlin and Paris, and I compared Hamburg to Bristol, Southampton and Bordeaux. It's true that Berlin isn't a great comparison for London, as it still has high unemployment and "East German" prices, and Hamburg might actually be a more sensible comparison. Munich might be even more expensive than London

It may be true that I am guilty of circular thinking. I compared places that I thought I would be likely to live in, and the obvious factor when I choose where I want to live is the prices. But also, I thought the areas I chose were similar in style, where similar mix of people might live. It's also true that in a European city, you will be nearer the centre than in London, but that is partly due to the geography. London is big. But I am comparing prices, not lifestyles. If the average Londener does commute for an hour, then that may be the right area for comparison.

I would be interested to hear suggestions for equivalent places to compare.

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I think it might be difficult to find anywhere to compare with London in Germany because the country isn't so centralised, politically or economically. The financial centre is still Frankfurt, the political centre (at least in national terms) and creative hub is Berlin. Economic prosperity is much more spread out.

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I think you're using the GBP figure for Oxford house prices and the euro figure for UK incomes

I think you're using the GBP figure for Oxford house prices and the euro figure for UK incomes.

Why would I do that?

Oxford really is more expensive than Grenoble

Your figures are wrong.

Edited by davidg

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Why would I do that?

Your figures are wrong.

I assumed that you didn't mean to do it. :)

I used your figures for Grenoble and French wages, the figures for Oxford prices come from Danny Dorling and UK wages from the ONS. Your number for Oxford house prices in euro sounded suspiciously similar to Dorling's number in pounds.

Does Grenoble have higher than average wages for France? I thought that there were a lot of technology jobs there that would raise the average for the area. I could be wrong.

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Very difficult to make fair comparisons between cities let alone countries but I tried to select equivalents. Searched for 3 bed property (4 room in europe) Sizes in France were a bit smaller (~100sq m) than in Germany. Selected median. I chnged estate agency half way through France, as the results per page was easier to handle. In GBP and euros. I ignored taxes and service charges, which can be major iems.

Capital City, London, Clapham North

Buy - 700k

Rent - 2383

Berlin, Schöneberg

Buy - 629k

Rent - 1778

Paris, 11th Arr

Buy - 810k

Rent - 2802

Major City, Manchester

Buy - 195k

Rent - 1100

Bielefeld

Buy - 261k

Rent - 700

Lyon

Buy - 239k

Rent - 950

Coast/Port, Southampton

Buy - 245k

Rent - 995

Bristol

Buy - 300k

Rent - 995

Hamburg

Buy - 755k

Rent - 1835

Bordeaux

Buy - 350k

Rent - 960

I hate to say it, but maybe prices aren't quite as overvalued in the UK as we think. As mentioned on this thread, once you get out in the country, many places in Europe can be cheaper.

[edit] I have accidentally used 4 rooms and above instead of exactly 4 rooms in my search. This will have inflated the prices in Europe . For example, the Bielefeld property should be 257k, not 261k. I will correct them next week, if this thread is still around]

So for €629,000 (c. £462,000)I can buy this magnificent 168m2 5 room apartment in central Berlin:

£462,000 will buy me a 3-bed ex-council flat in the London suburbs: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-51519950.html

I do not think that this shows that prices are comparable at all.

Edited by Ah-so

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So for €629,000 (c. £462,000)I can buy this magnificent 168m2 5 room apartment in central Berlin:

£462,000 will buy me a 3-bed ex-council flat in the London suburbs: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-51519950.html

I do not think that this shows that prices are comparable at all.

Personally, I think a roughly fair exchange rate for comparisons is 1:1. The current surge in the rate is only relevant if you are literally selling up and moving abroad.

I agree London and Berlin are not really comparable. Berlin is an economic blackspot as far as Germany is concerned. Unemployment is in the mid to high teens.

In general you will get a better quality property in a more pleasant environment in Europe, but again, this seems to me more of a "lifestyle" thing than a house prices thing. We are willing to tolerate crapper property than the Germans, just like we used to tolerate crapper cars.

Edited by Steppenpig

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I don't know Shoreditch very well. I guess in terms of centralness it might be fairer. I'll try and look at it next week (tbh, I don't know Paris that well either, I picked on the 11th as being the most "ordinary" area, while still being very pleasant and livible)

I think in order for the median to be a reasonable reflection of prices, there has to be a reasonably large zone of relatively similar properties

The problem with London is finding an large enough zone that is relatively uniform and reasonably pleasant copared to Paris and Berlin, which seem to have much larger zones of uniformness. In London there is usually dross a few streets away.

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Bastille area which is essentially 11th Arr is the place to be IMO it's very trendy and right next to 3rd Arr where all the fashion happens and where property prices are bonkers. I think that Shoreditch or Camden would be a more like for like comparison. But I get your point that in Paris areas are much more broadly defined. You either live in central paris where its expensive and affluent or just outside where you have whole swathes of estates that would rival the nastiest bits of London.

Edited by repetitive bleats

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Personally, I think a roughly fair exchange rate for comparisons is 1:1. The current surge in the rate is only relevant if you are literally selling up and moving abroad.

I agree London and Berlin are not really comparable. Berlin is an economic blackspot as far as Germany is concerned. Unemployment is in the mid to high teens.

In general you will get a better quality property in a more pleasant environment in Europe, but again, this seems to me more of a "lifestyle" thing than a house prices thing. We are willing to tolerate crapper property than the Germans, just like we used to tolerate crapper cars.

To start off, I do not think that you can arbitrarily decide on a "fair" exchange rate, without some evidence. Considering that GBPEUR has never gone down to 1:1 in entire time that it has had a price, such a fair rate is well off the mark. As a long run average, I could agree to 1.25.

I do not think that it is fair to talk about what we will tolerate, but rather what we can afford given the amount of people and space there are. People living in central Hong Kong or Tokyo will have to accept very cramped conditions. Your money goes further in Berlin. It will go far further if you head out to the USA and live in North Carolina, or somewhere.

The flats you gave in Paris were comparably priced, but were a stone's throw from Bastille. Your comparison needs to be more central, not Clapham. But for a comparable cost I can get this cracking place with stunning views.

If I move out to the inner suburbs of the 19th Arrondisement, I can still get about 100m2 for €570,000. It is not massively cheaper than London, but still a good 20% cheaper.

Edited by Ah-so

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